ALL Spezza talk - to trade, not to trade, rant, rave etc.

As for the other part, I sent an e-mail to Team1200 (well, the the post-game crew, since there was no e-mail listed for Brown or the pre-game show).

It seems like I'm doing all the legwork here and you are just sitting back, repeating your skepticism. You'd think you would want to do a little more research yourself. You've got a PhD; I *know* you can do research. Surely you didn't defend it just by saying "I don't think so" over and over again?

wprager wrote:Damn it, I promised myself I'd be done with this ...

http://smithjoa.oreb.mlxchange.com/?id=3732353539.268&r=459686784&s=OTW&t=OTW&pid=1613084

Devo wrote:On that note, I had a conversation with a former player with the sens (friend of a friend if you will) that is still involved in the organization and he strongly hinted that Spezza knee injury wasn't the reason for him being out 8 weeks. That the injury was healed after 3 or 4 weeks, but that the Sens used the knee injury as a reason to keep him out longer for the real injury which is his back.

And then, in reply to Dash's question asking if he knew Richardson:

http://www.gmhockey.com/ottawa-centaurs-f31/game-day-chicago-blackhawks-ottawa-senators-730pm-et-tue-jan-19th-2010-p142884.htm

Devo wrote:Not quite like knowing a superstar is it...yeah I know him.

Friends of mine grew up with him and it wasn't uncommon to go over to my friends house and end up discussing hockey with his Mom and Dad (they would be there visiting).

**EDIT**

It wasn't Mr. Richardson that tipped me onto the Spezza scenario. Another former player though. Living in Kanata has it's benefits...

Thank you for that.

I guess the first thing to point out is that some support for Devo's character is needed. I'm willing to believe people on this site have connections, but this kind of info isn't exactly the same as a report on TSN.ca, I hope we can all agree. I'm not judging one way or the other at the moment, but I'm sure you'll agree we've seen internet nerds masquerading as "insiders" before.

The second thing to point out is that, while there is mention of a back injury in Devo's comments, there's is nothing about that back injury pre-dating the knee injury, or about Spezza fighting through that back injury for the season. There's literally nothing at all on that point in this report.

These are points which, I would hope, Devo could begin to clear up for us, tho'.

This is why me seeing the words of the actual reports is so crucial. So often, there's a big difference between what's on the page, and what we read into those words on the page.

Anyway, one down, one to go!

wprager wrote:As for the other part, I sent an e-mail to Team1200 (well, the the post-game crew, since there was no e-mail listed for Brown or the pre-game show).

It seems like I'm doing all the legwork here and you are just sitting back, repeating your skepticism. You'd think you would want to do a little more research yourself. You've got a PhD; I *know* you can do research. Surely you didn't defend it just by saying "I don't think so" over and over again?

Ah, but the burden of proof lies with you, my friend. You're the one saying that Spezza's mystery injury is fact. All I'm saying is that we have little evidence to go on to support that assertion -- and that the assertion itself smells more than a little funny to me (much like excuse makery) if it has no basis.

I do appreciate your willingness to follow up. I await Team1200's response.

Of course, if you could just find a TSN report that says something to the effect that Spezza was playing injured in October-November, you'd definitely convince me -- and maybe even help to assuage my Spezza-doubt.

rooneypoo wrote:

hemlock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:I make a point of NOT playing grammar nazi on this site. Trust me on this. I have taught entire courses on grammar, essay writing, writing mechanics, etc.. I recite this stuff in my sleep. Ask Gohan, who (used to) regularly send grammar questions my way. I don't bring that here, and I don't hold myself or anyone else to the same standards of writing (proofreading, etc.) that I do in an academic setting -- in fact, I often employ colloquialisms and grammar errors I'm well aware of (such as pairing up the singular noun "everyone" with the plural pronoun "they" instead of "he/she") to avoid sounding pedantic, and to keep the discussion about hockey and not grammar.

I think I might enjoy you randomly going off, laying a grammar beatdown on some unsuspecting schmuck. Not me of course, but someone else.

Come to think of it, I'd actually like to know how my writing is (besides the rambling and run-on sentences ).

If you're serious, just PM me one of your older posts (the longer the sample, the better -- within reason), and I can oblige. I'm usually v. busy Mon-Thurs, but I look for breaks when I can get them Fri-Sun.

Thanks, I'll track down a post.

Here's a serious topic created by Devo that could fortify his credibility:

http://www.gmhockey.com/rant-n-rave-f48/improving-the-in-game-experience-t4037.htm

He's talking about his connections in the thread.

Burden of proof lies with me? Really? Did you just get a law degree to go with that PhD? Circumstantial evidence and hearsay is not inadmissible. It can be argued against, of course, but depending on how rigorous the burden of proof is required to be, it very often is enough.

Circumstantial evidence:
- Spezza's bad play before (we all know he could do better)
- Spezza's improved play after being off 8 weeks
- previous back issues

Hearsay evidence:
- Devo's post(s)
- Dean and Gord's pre-game show

Direct evidence:
- Spezza himself admitting that, health-wise, he had some problems before the knee injury

You choose to disregard all those, which is fine. Thing is, you have offered *nothing* whatsoever to support your side of the argument (which, I believe, boils down to "Spezza sucked for two years"). Nothing other than to point out the obvious -- that we have no documented, direct medical evidence of an injury. And, guess what, we all know that in today's NHL that's just not going to happen.

The burden of proof, by the way, lies with the one laying charges. My position has clearly been one of "defending" Spezza; you can't argue that (if you do, I'll quote posts made by either you or Neely). I know it sounded cool and all when you said it, but you really should research a little better.

wprager wrote:Burden of proof lies with me? Really? Did you just get a law degree to go with that PhD? Circumstantial evidence and hearsay is not inadmissible. It can be argued against, of course, but depending on how rigorous the burden of proof is required to be, it very often is enough.

Circumstantial evidence:
- Spezza's bad play before (we all know he could do better)
- Spezza's improved play after being off 8 weeks
- previous back issues

Hearsay evidence:
- Devo's post(s)
- Dean and Gord's pre-game show

Direct evidence:
- Spezza himself admitting that, health-wise, he had some problems before the knee injury

You choose to disregard all those, which is fine. Thing is, you have offered *nothing* whatsoever to support your side of the argument (which, I believe, boils down to "Spezza sucked for two years"). Nothing other than to point out the obvious -- that we have no documented, direct medical evidence of an injury. And, guess what, we all know that in today's NHL that's just not going to happen.

The burden of proof, by the way, lies with the one laying charges. My position has clearly been one of "defending" Spezza; you can't argue that (if you do, I'll quote posts made by either you or Neely). I know it sounded cool and all when you said it, but you really should research a little better.

This is beyond ridiculous. You're saying he was injured in October-November; I'm saying, "show me the evidence; and if there is no evidence, then it sounds to me like people are making excuses for him." That's it. No "charges" there. It's not disputable that Spezza has not been a great player for almost 2 years -- that's fact, backed by empirical evidence that we can all see and access (his stats, his actual play night in and night out).

Do you even read my stuff, or just look for a way in to try to cut me down and then disregard the rest? Where does Devo's original say anything about Spezza suffering from a back injury in October-November 2009?

OK, this time I'm really done. You've really gone over the edge. I don't remember you being such a cabbage head from before but, perhaps, there's some truth in what another poster said about you. I used to respect your opinion and your posts, but lately I've noticed changes. You started by getting into it with a new poster (or two), and now you're doing the same with me. Personally, I don't think I come across as an arse, so I usually don't take kindly when someone responds to me in such a way. I really don't know what's going on with you but you must be under some stress to cause such a shift. Or, perhaps, my initial read on you was incorrect. Who knows?

I don't have any evidence to support any mental injury or anguish you may have suffered, that has affected your performance on this site. I know you're capable of doing better than this, and we've all seen it in the past. Maybe Devo knows someone who knows you and can lend some hearsay evidence to support the notion of some kind of stress-induced personality disorder?

I'm not going to put you on ignore as I'm hoping this is just a temporary "thing" you're going through. I'll sit back, now, and read your reply. I know I'm not going to like it but, frankly, this will be a tiny disappointment when compared to what we all have to go through in real life. I'll read; I'll probably shake my head and roll my eyes; very likely I'll think of a few clever retorts. But I'm going to suppress the (undeniable) urge to get the next word because, frankly, this has gone beyond ridiculous and not into the sublime.

Have a good day, everyone.

I'm just joining in so I'll bite Also as prage has said it's all just forum talk so I promis not to cry if my post gets ripped apart.

Spezza's "poor" play has been thrown out there a lot and granted some of his numbers don't look good. I will just say this.

Spezza is 4th overall in scoring this season and climbing, with about 20 lesss games than Fisher and Kovalev ahead of him.

Spezza's shooting percentage is 11.2 this season and was 13 last season and 16.2 before that. Yes I went that far back because it's been said that Spezza has not been great for 2 years. Convenient cutoff. I chose actual seasons.

Spezza's percentage of total team goals scored in 07/08 was 13%
Spezza's percentage of total team goals scored in 08/09 was 15%
Spezza's percentage of total team goals scored in 09/10 so far 7.5%

It's interesting that his best percentage of total team goals scored was actually one of his "poor" seasons.

Ok, people have to start looking outside the stats to defend his play, using all these BS stats that can be interpreted in a number of ways is a bad way to do it.

Spezza's play over the last little bit have been both productive and hard nosed (as hard nosed as he will be). Aside from Saturday he has been good the last week at both ends of the ice and battled when he had the opportunity to. Sat everyone gets the pass because that was bound to happen.

Like I said before, I trust Murray and what he chooses but we will see what Spezza shows up if things hit a rough patch here. Until I see him grab the team by the balls and lift them up with his play I will never be sold on Spezza being "the man" here in Ottawa.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I'm just joining in so I'll bite Also as prage has said it's all just forum talk so I promis not to cry if my post gets ripped apart.

Spezza's "poor" play has been thrown out there a lot and granted some of his numbers don't look good. I will just say this.

Spezza is 4th overall in scoring this season and climbing, with about 20 lesss games than Fisher and Kovalev ahead of him.

Spezza's shooting percentage is 11.2 this season and was 13 last season and 16.2 before that. Yes I went that far back because it's been said that Spezza has not been great for 2 years. Convenient cutoff. I chose actual seasons.

Spezza's percentage of total team goals scored in 07/08 was 13%
Spezza's percentage of total team goals scored in 08/09 was 15%
Spezza's percentage of total team goals scored in 09/10 so far 7.5%

It's interesting that his best percentage of total team goals scored was actually one of his "poor" seasons.

So, what you are saying is that, when things were going really badly for the team (i.e. first time they missed the playoffs since most here were too young to drink), that was actually his most productive season (when put up against the rest of the team)?

Interesting. So when the going got tough (for the team) he didn't exactly sit and sulk.

Again, that's a minipulation of stats which can be turned into numbers that dont prove anything.

You can take those stats and say "the players around him when they are losing do less because Spezza takes a selfish approch and does too much himself which hurts the rest of the team but inflates his stats". See what I did there with the numbers... stop using stats to try and prove a point that cant be proven with numbers.

N4L wrote:Again, that's a minipulation of stats which can be turned into numbers that dont prove anything.

You can take those stats and say "the players around him when they are losing do less because Spezza takes a selfish approch and does too much himself which hurts the rest of the team but inflates his stats". See what I did there with the numbers... stop using stats to try and prove a point that cant be proven with numbers.

All I did was present the stats and say it was interesting. I didn't interpret anything from it. I personally don't accept statements about Spezza's play over the last two years that he hasn't been great and therefore he will never be great and it is a true and clear picture of what Spezza is and what he will be for his career until proven otherwise.

I was talking more tp Prags there and the way he took the stats. Anyways, you can look at stats and form an opinion that could go either way, which is why stats are not a good way to determine a players value to a team.

N4L wrote:I was talking more tp Prags there and the way he took the stats. Anyways, you can look at stats and form an opinion that could go either way, which is why stats are not a good way to determine a players value to a team.

Just as isolating a two year segment of a player's career is also a weak argument.

Spezza was awful the 2 previous seasons and I uch prefere what I have seen at times this year (the first 15 games and the last 9) then anything I saw from Spezza the two 2 seasons prior to it. Dont care if he put up 200 points and the team sucked, he's more valuable doing what he is now and just doign what is asked of him in a team sense then all the points he put up.

His production will not be as high as previous years and probably never will be but using statisitcs wont show that he is actually playing better and becoming much more a team player on and off the ice (donating his time for Rene caught my attention, anyone can write a check) and that's what he has to do. I heard that on Friday and my tune changed just a little along with him selling that stupid house in Island Park.

rooneypoo wrote:

wprager wrote:As for the other part, I sent an e-mail to Team1200 (well, the the post-game crew, since there was no e-mail listed for Brown or the pre-game show).

It seems like I'm doing all the legwork here and you are just sitting back, repeating your skepticism. You'd think you would want to do a little more research yourself. You've got a PhD; I *know* you can do research. Surely you didn't defend it just by saying "I don't think so" over and over again?

Ah, but the burden of proof lies with you, my friend. You're the one saying that Spezza's mystery injury is fact. All I'm saying is that we have little evidence to go on to support that assertion -- and that the assertion itself smells more than a little funny to me (much like excuse makery) if it has no basis.

I do appreciate your willingness to follow up. I await Team1200's response.

Of course, if you could just find a TSN report that says something to the effect that Spezza was playing injured in October-November, you'd definitely convince me -- and maybe even help to assuage my Spezza-doubt.

Dude, it's not Law and Order in here it is a hockey discussion forum. There is no "burden of proof".

I heard on the pre-game show and Gord and Dean mentioned that Spezza said he hurt his back right before training camp doing squats. Not injured, that is why you will not find anything on TSN.ca.

Nagging pain will affect your preformance and if you can't see that then there is a good chacne you have never really done any physical.

N4L wrote:Spezza was awful the 2 previous seasons and I uch prefere what I have seen at times this year (the first 15 games and the last 9) then anything I saw from Spezza the two 2 seasons prior to it. Dont care if he put up 200 points and the team sucked, he's more valuable doing what he is now and just doign what is asked of him in a team sense then all the points he put up.

His production will not be as high as previous years and probably never will be but using statisitcs wont show that he is actually playing better and becoming much more a team player on and off the ice (donating his time for Rene caught my attention, anyone can write a check) and that's what he has to do. I heard that on Friday and my tune changed just a little along with him selling that stupid house in Island Park.

I don't want to hear anymore crap about his character, or lack of.

Hmmmmm, if only I cared... Jesus, sorry, I dont. Spezza's charater is questionable at best. Oh, did it again.

I don't know about you N4L but, for the most part, people only started complaining about Spezza's play when his numbers dipped and often only refer to his play during a period where his numbers were down.

It makes it very hard not to bring up stats under those circumstances.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I don't know about you N4L but, for the most part, people only started complaining about Spezza's play when his numbers dipped and often only refer to his play during a period where his numbers were down.

It makes it very hard not to bring up stats under those circumstances.

I said earlier, I think, or I thought it. You evaluate offensive players by their numbers. Nothing wrong with that.

God invented factors like "intangibles" and "doing other things" to measure the performance of less talented players. Nothing wrong with that either.

N4L wrote:Hmmmmm, if only I cared... Jesus, sorry, I dont. Spezza's charater is questionable at best. Oh, did it again.

Wow, tough guy over the internet...

Nope, just dont care, haha. If you dont like what Im writting I know for a fact there is an ignore button.

N4L wrote:Spezza was awful the 2 previous seasons and I uch prefere what I have seen at times this year (the first 15 games and the last 9) then anything I saw from Spezza the two 2 seasons prior to it. Dont care if he put up 200 points and the team sucked, he's more valuable doing what he is now and just doign what is asked of him in a team sense then all the points he put up.

His production will not be as high as previous years and probably never will be but using statisitcs wont show that he is actually playing better and becoming much more a team player on and off the ice (donating his time for Rene caught my attention, anyone can write a check) and that's what he has to do. I heard that on Friday and my tune changed just a little along with him selling that stupid house in Island Park.

What's this about? I missed it.

Spezza donated an hour of icetime to be spent with up to 20 kids as an auction item, along with the usual complement of signed swag. Apparently, Shean Donovan was also instrumental in making this happen.

TheAvatar wrote:
What's this about? I missed it.

Rene was the father who slipped and was paralysed while playing hockey. Everyone's trying to pitch in to help him out a bit.

N4L wrote:Nope, just dont care, haha. If you dont like what Im writting I know for a fact there is an ignore button.

Nah, I just like to point out that you are a clown!

N4L wrote:I was talking more tp Prags there and the way he took the stats. Anyways, you can look at stats and form an opinion that could go either way, which is why stats are not a good way to determine a players value to a team.

I'm not interpreting stats at all. Just countering what you said. You did not say that when things start going badly for the team, Spezza gets all selfish and starts scoring more goals. You said something quite different; the stats pretty much show the opposite of what you were saying.

I actually didnt say that... I said Spezza's game goes to crap which it does. So again, look at all the numbers you want but they dont show how well or poorly he is playing.

If he gets 3 goals every game for the rest of his life and his team doesnt score besides him and he gives the puck away 4 times every game that leads to a goal... they lose every game 4-3. No stat for bad give aways is there?

SeawaySensFan wrote:Spezza donated an hour of icetime to be spent with up to 20 kids as an auction item, along with the usual complement of signed swag. Apparently, Shean Donovan was also instrumental in making this happen.

A signed Bobby Orr jersey is not "the usual complement". He also donated a pair of in-game worn skates.

N4L wrote:I actually didnt say that... I said Spezza's game goes to crap which it does. So again, look at all the numbers you want but they dont show how well or poorly he is playing.

If he gets 3 goals every game for the rest of his life and his team doesnt score besides him and he gives the puck away 4 times every game that leads to a goal... they lose every game 4-3. No stat for bad give aways is there?

An offensive player going to crap usually means his offensive game declines.

By the way, new GDT is up.

wprager wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:Spezza donated an hour of icetime to be spent with up to 20 kids as an auction item, along with the usual complement of signed swag. Apparently, Shean Donovan was also instrumental in making this happen.

A signed Bobby Orr jersey is not "the usual complement". He also donated a pair of in-game worn skates.

Anyone can donate things like sticks, skates, sweaters, w/e. Taking your own time from your own life to help someone else says way more about a person then cutting a check or giving them a pair of skates. Spezza donating his time and paying for the ice to help support someone he doesnt know within the Ottawa community is above and beyond anything he needed to or should have done.

wprager wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:Spezza donated an hour of icetime to be spent with up to 20 kids as an auction item, along with the usual complement of signed swag. Apparently, Shean Donovan was also instrumental in making this happen.

A signed Bobby Orr jersey is not "the usual complement". He also donated a pair of in-game worn skates.

You're right. I wasn't trying to minimize the swag. It's just that the more unusual, exceptional donation was the ice time.

wprager wrote:

N4L wrote:I actually didnt say that... I said Spezza's game goes to crap which it does. So again, look at all the numbers you want but they dont show how well or poorly he is playing.

If he gets 3 goals every game for the rest of his life and his team doesnt score besides him and he gives the puck away 4 times every game that leads to a goal... they lose every game 4-3. No stat for bad give aways is there?

An offensive player going to crap usually means his offensive game declines.

Spezza's best hockey has been when he wasnt producing at over a ppg clip. He's adding more to the team right now then just scoring. Again, someone will look at the stats and say "he isnt where he used to be", well if he keeps playing like he has been at both ends of the ice his production will go down but others might go up because he can be counted on elsehwere.

The best indication of how well an "offensive player" is playing is by how well his team is playing with him.

Great. He's producing *and* pitching in defensively. Before he was just producing. That shows he's growing as a hockey player (finally). What does any of that have to do with my point?

You said when the going gets tough his game goes to crap. Two years ago, saying his game went to crap would mean he stopped producing, while still making those numb-skulled turnovers. The stats show otherwise.

Look, I know what you're trying to say and do. I've got a 13 year old who does the same. He's never wrong. Nuh-uh.

wprager wrote:Great. He's producing *and* pitching in defensively. Before he was just producing. That shows he's growing as a hockey player (finally). What does any of that have to do with my point?

You said when the going gets tough his game goes to crap. Two years ago, saying his game went to crap would mean he stopped producing, while still making those numb-skulled turnovers. The stats show otherwise.

Look, I know what you're trying to say and do. I've got a 13 year old who does the same. He's never wrong. Nuh-uh.

One, that's not what it means at all. Two, he did stop producing toward the 2nd 1/2 of the season and didnt do anything in the playoffs. Producing on the score sheet and playing well are two things that dont have to be related, a lot of the time are not, and in Spezza's case for the last 2 years that was the case.

Again, you can produce without playing well or the team winning and a lot of the time that's what happens. Anyways, I think Im beating a dead horse here because some people use stats for anything and everything.

wprager wrote:Look, I know what you're trying to say and do. I've got a 13 year old who does the same. He's never wrong. Nuh-uh.

lol. never wrong unless you bring up old posts that talk about san jose, heatley, leclaire, cheechoo, speeza, lee,, kelly etc, etc. lol

i think it was spezd that told me about the ignore feature. it works well. the only time you see posts from people on your list is when they are quoted by somebody else which thankfully isnt much.

cloverleaf wrote:

wprager wrote:Look, I know what you're trying to say and do. I've got a 13 year old who does the same. He's never wrong. Nuh-uh.

lol. never wrong unless you bring up old posts that talk about san jose, heatley, leclaire, cheechoo, speeza, lee,, kelly etc, etc. lol

One of the luxuires of talking out of both sides of your mouth...never wrong!

TeamRenzo wrote:

N4L wrote:Nope, just dont care, haha. If you dont like what Im writting I know for a fact there is an ignore button.

Nah, I just like to point out that you are a clown!

Im glad you did, thanks!

Stick to the (stupid) topic please. Thanks.

I simply thanked him for pointing out that I'm a clown, if anything I was very polite and kind.

wprager wrote:OK, this time I'm really done. You've really gone over the edge. I don't remember you being such a cabbage head from before but, perhaps, there's some truth in what another poster said about you. I used to respect your opinion and your posts, but lately I've noticed changes. You started by getting into it with a new poster (or two), and now you're doing the same with me. Personally, I don't think I come across as an arse, so I usually don't take kindly when someone responds to me in such a way. I really don't know what's going on with you but you must be under some stress to cause such a shift. Or, perhaps, my initial read on you was incorrect. Who knows?

I don't have any evidence to support any mental injury or anguish you may have suffered, that has affected your performance on this site. I know you're capable of doing better than this, and we've all seen it in the past. Maybe Devo knows someone who knows you and can lend some hearsay evidence to support the notion of some kind of stress-induced personality disorder?

I'm not going to put you on ignore as I'm hoping this is just a temporary "thing" you're going through. I'll sit back, now, and read your reply. I know I'm not going to like it but, frankly, this will be a tiny disappointment when compared to what we all have to go through in real life. I'll read; I'll probably shake my head and roll my eyes; very likely I'll think of a few clever retorts. But I'm going to suppress the (undeniable) urge to get the next word because, frankly, this has gone beyond ridiculous and not into the sublime.

Have a good day, everyone.

Yes, now I see how "mad" it is to ask for proof of the thing you're assuming as the basis of your argument, and which you're using to steamroll my position and hording over me as established fact. Absolutely insane. Clearly, over the course of earning 2 graduate degrees and adding "Dr." to the front of my name and teaching courses on writing and arguing, I learned absolutely nothing about reasoning, logic, and effective argumentation. It's all so obvious now. It's amazing how some 2 dozen instructors, all with doctorates to their name, and all dedicating their time to my work (with increasing scrutiny and attention with regard to my later material), as well as all my classmates, colleagues, and conference attendees, all failed to see how painfully deficient at holding my own in an argument. That explains so much. That you for opening my eyes and showing the way.

Calling me a "cabbage head" and attacking my character adds a lot of credibility to your position, and your character, btw. Find one sentence in this conversation where I ever attack you personally, I challenge you. It is your argument, and not your person, that I dispute. If you really can't see how the sources you're citing in defence of your position actually don't say the things you're saying they say, then I'm done. I unfortunately can't get all my students to see how Bartleby is far more than a madman or why Shelley talks to the wind, either -- some people just don't get it now matter what I do, and it would appear that this is sadly one of those instances.

You have no idea how much I'm holding back in terms of responding to you on a personal level, wprager. You would be wise not to respond to me in these terms again, or I won't be responsible for what I say.