GAME DAY: Pittsburgh Penguins @ Ottawa Senators - 7:30pm EST - Thu. Nov. 19th, 2009

SeawaySensFan wrote:

N4L wrote:Ya, Mike Fisher is absolutely carrying this team right now and is the number 1 center in Ottawa right now... also about the only center in Ottawa who has a shot at Team Canada. He doesnt even have the best two wingers on the team paying with him.

This isnt ment to rip Spezza, but he's getting paid 7 million per year and he only has 11 points in 19 games, 1 goal... He needs to do something offensivly to justify that salary. It's fine being patient with him trying to learn the game on the other side of the puck, but it's pushing it now.

Lloyd Sweaterman? Is that you?

Why does Spezza need to do something offensively? I thought we needed him to be a Selke-calibre player? lol

Besides, he's not playing with a finisher. Alfie likes to start and finish his own plays and Michalek will carry the puck and charge to the net to create his chances. Right now, Choochoo is the best option to get Spezza going.

Spezza shouldnt need a top player to be producing at a better then .50 ppg. Mickalek an Alfi are producing and Spezza is not, even on the PP. He needs to get going in a big way.

N4L wrote:You wont be getting a top D man that is signed beyond this year in season. Like I said, nothing to be done right now because patients will be key. If they want to bring in a Seabrooke, a Hamius, a Campbell, then w/e, but I dont see it being mid season.

What about if Anaheim continues to struggle and remain near the bottom of the league? Eventually they are going to have to start thinking about getting some value for their UFAs.

Right now, they are sitting last in their own division, seven points behind the team ahead of them. Sure they have a game or two in hand on their division, but they stink right now.

Wonder what the asking price for a Scott Niedermayer would be.

Probably about the same as Pronger. 3 first round picks and a top 6 or top 4 D man.

PKC wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:Dan Hamhuis. Broken record, I know.

But it's pretty slim pickings. A lot of the bigger names are on playoff teams and the others are franchise cornerstones it seems.

What about a guy like Kubina or Zidlicky?

I considered them and Aucoin but they may be in the playoffs? Carolina doesn't have much. I don't see Niedermeyer getting dealt. Maybe a cheap team will want to unload salary. Ballard is a little expensive, though, and the term is suspect.

The thing is, Nashville is cheap AND they won't make the playoffs AND Hamhuis is a pending UFA.

N4L wrote:Spezza shouldnt need a top player to be producing at a better then .50 ppg. Mickalek an Alfi are producing and Spezza is not, even on the PP. He needs to get going in a big way.

I said Choochoo, no mention of a top player. And the fact that Michalek and The Alfie are producing without Spezza illustrates my original point that he needs a finisher.

Meh, they tried Cheechoo up there and nothing came of it. It's wasnt for short spurts of time either, they had a decent amount of time together.

Either way Spezza should have more then 1 goal in 20 games and Brian Lee and Matt Carkner should not have more goals then him 20 games in either.

N4L wrote:Meh, they tried Cheechoo up there and nothing came of it. It's wasnt for short spurts of time either, they had a decent amount of time together.

Either way Spezza should have more then 1 goal in 20 games and Brian Lee and Matt Carkner should not have more goals then him 20 games in either.

Really? Because it seems to me that Cheechoo has bounced around the lineup quite a bit?

I think it would be in the teams best interest to do what they can to get a 7 million dollar player going and not just hope he stratightens out. They had no problems moving heaven and earth to try to get other players going in the past. Why not now?

What else can you do? He's playing with argueably the two most complete players on the team... If he needs a 7.5 million dollar player to prouduce then he is in trouble from that stand point. Again, love his commitment to defense and I dont think he is playing poorly or costing his team but he needs to produce more then he is. pointless in 6 games is pretty close to unacceptable, the one goal is secondary. I think he does come around but this is still raising serious questions.

I'm wondering if they should just tell Spezza to abandon any inkling of defensive play and just go all out.

While I love the fact that his 2-way game is improving... it's come at the high price of much fewer goals.

And he's switching sticks... so all of this together is making for a big transition.

I dunno.

I'm laughing at myself for even saying this... we crap on Spezza because he's a defensive liability... now he's addressing that issue and we crap on him for not scoring goals...

Methinks we can't have our cake and eat it too... at this point in time...

shabbs wrote:I'm wondering if they should just tell Spezza to abandon any inkling of defensive play and just go all out.

While I love the fact that his 2-way game is improving... it's come at the high price of much fewer goals.

And he's switching sticks... so all of this together is making for a big transition.

I dunno.

I'm laughing at myself for even saying this... we crap on Spezza because he's a defensive liability... now he's addressing that issue and we crap on him for not scoring goals...

Methinks we can't have our cake and eat it too... at this point in time...

I dont think you can rip on Spezza for playing defense and he should keep this up for the rest of his career, that being said, if he cant do both... then I dont know. I think he will turn it around honestly, but man, he has to play like something resembling a 4 or 5 million dollar player, not Chris Kelly... that's where he is right now and even then I would say Kelly is getting more scoring chances in general, forget about the difference in amount of ice time.

N4L wrote:What else can you do? He's playing with argueably the two most complete players on the team... If he needs a 7.5 million dollar player to prouduce then he is in trouble from that stand point. Again, love his commitment to defense and I dont think he is playing poorly or costing his team but he needs to produce more then he is. pointless in 6 games is pretty close to unacceptable, the one goal is secondary. I think he does come around but this is still raising serious questions.

And I'm saying that playing with "complete" players is hurting his production. And Choochoo is not a 7.5 million dollar player either.

Yeah, we've been wanting this out of Spezza for years, and now that he has made this improvement to his game, we want him to go back to the reckless abandon offense? Just like Mike Fisher spent years as a 20 goal scorer known for his defense, he is now looking at 36 goals and still being considered a solid shutdown guy. It takes time to balance both aspects of the game, and maybe it will be another year or two but Spezza might just become a Datysuk in this league.

Michalek is also blossoming in Ottawa. He's had really good numbers in SJ, but he's been given the reigns for offense and as well is looked upon for killing penalties.

If every player in Ottawqa could eb as effective aty both ends, then there's no reason why this team couldn't win.

I know it is likely a fluke, but look at Phillips last night - though I didn't think he was that impressive defensively.

Who else is there to play with? Cheechoo, ya, I can see that... but Ruutu, Neil, Winchester, Donovan, Shannon? None of those guys are going to help Spezza all that much, if at all... Cheechoo might get a bit more out of him, but not much.

Spezza really has to find a balance and learn to be effective everywhere on the ice. I think he has lots of time right now but this goes to show you that he is not a 7 million dollar player and a border line, 1st line center.

If Fisher wasnt producing like he is right now everyone might be questioning Spezza a little more then we are. He really needs to find that balance.

Maybe it's time for Clouston to give Kovy and Spezza a real chance together... once Kovy returns from Russia that is.

I think Spezza will get it going. I don't mind going through this "transistion" if his game ends up being better all around and it helps the team. I don't write the cheques so I just want wins.

shabbs wrote:Maybe it's time for Clouston to give Kovy and Spezza a real chance together... once Kovy returns from Russia that is.

I think Spezza will get it going. I don't mind going through this "transistion" if his game ends up being better all around and it helps the team. I don't write the cheques so I just want wins.

Kovy and Fisher have it going on right now, tooooons of chemistry. Those two are clicking big time.

Spezza has Alfi and Michalek right there with him, I dont see a need to change anything in that aspect. I dont see Spezza going much longer without decent production but it's starting to get a little worrysome, that's all.

Point to all this was Spezza needs to be this teams best player for The Sens to have a shot at the playoffs because Fisher will not end up with 80 plus points.

shabbs wrote:Maybe it's time for Clouston to give Kovy and Spezza a real chance together... once Kovy returns from Russia that is.

I think Spezza will get it going. I don't mind going through this "transistion" if his game ends up being better all around and it helps the team. I don't write the cheques so I just want wins.

Right now, the so-called second line is helping us win. You can easily tinker with all 3 of the others and in the case of the first, you MUST tinker. Never mind Spezza, that line has to work as a line. It's pretty important if you ask me.

Yeah, the risk of mixing it up too much up is high, and the Fish-Kovy thing is working well.

Maybe Spezza just needs a breakout game to get his mojo going... Buffalo on Sat night would be nice... light 'em up and get it going on.

Spezza usually lights up Buffalo so that could very well be in the cards.

N4L wrote:Spezza usually lights up Buffalo so that could very well be in the cards.

Let us pray.

*prays*

I think Yzerman is our dream comparison for Spezza. Remember when he came into the league he was a top ten scorer. I think he scored something like 142 pts (didn't check but someone can correct that). Anyway, he committed himself to improving his defensive game and became a cup winning leader. He didn't make the transition overnight and his offense hurt through the transition. (Probably his defense took time as well).

The well rounded player who came out the other end is the guy you can build your team around. (Alfie will retire sometime) So we can either be patient and allow some maturation here or we can abandon the effort to develope him into a well rounded player and let him go tag points as his most important/only contribution.

Great game last night....I wasn't expecting the victory, but to get it in such a fashion is a bonus. Hopefully the sens can see the light at the end of the tunnel and just keep moving forward.

I thought everyone played well (or not harmful) hockey yesterday, so I'm gonna pass today on the 'Lets dump on ______ for underachieving".

Onto the next game: Looks like Sens will be without kovy and donovan for a few games, so both Regin and Shannon draw in then...I just hope clouston doesn't put shannon with fish and foligno. Rather I'm hoping for this:

Michalek-Spezza-Cheechoo
Foligno-Fisher-Alfie
Regin-Winchester-Neil
Ruutu-Kelly-Shannon

MurderOnIce wrote:I think Yzerman is our dream comparison for Spezza. Remember when he came into the league he was a top ten scorer. I think he scored something like 142 pts (didn't check but someone can correct that). Anyway, he committed himself to improving his defensive game and became a cup winning leader. He didn't make the transition overnight and his offense hurt through the transition. (Probably his defense took time as well).

The well rounded player who came out the other end is the guy you can build your team around. (Alfie will retire sometime) So we can either be patient and allow some maturation here or we can abandon the effort to develope him into a well rounded player and let him go tag points as his most important/only contribution.

I'm curious, what was Yzerman's salary during those times relative to the team?

Michallica wrote:Great game last night....I wasn't expecting the victory, but to get it in such a fashion is a bonus. Hopefully the sens can see the light at the end of the tunnel and just keep moving forward.

I thought everyone played well (or not harmful) hockey yesterday, so I'm gonna pass today on the 'Lets dump on ______ for underachieving".

Onto the next game: Looks like Sens will be without kovy and donovan for a few games, so both Regin and Shannon draw in then...I just hope clouston doesn't put shannon with fish and foligno. Rather I'm hoping for this:

Michalek-Spezza-Cheechoo
Foligno-Fisher-Alfie
Regin-Winchester-Neil
Ruutu-Kelly-Shannon

It was definitely a great game. I thought we were dead with the way it started but then they really turned it on. I'm quite pleased with the effort, and if I'm not mistaken, we find ourselves back in the race this morning.

Good lines, hopefully that's what CC will go with. We shall see.

MurderOnIce wrote:I think Yzerman is our dream comparison for Spezza. Remember when he came into the league he was a top ten scorer. I think he scored something like 142 pts (didn't check but someone can correct that). Anyway, he committed himself to improving his defensive game and became a cup winning leader. He didn't make the transition overnight and his offense hurt through the transition. (Probably his defense took time as well).

The well rounded player who came out the other end is the guy you can build your team around. (Alfie will retire sometime) So we can either be patient and allow some maturation here or we can abandon the effort to develope him into a well rounded player and let him go tag points as his most important/only contribution.

Or you could build a balanced team and let the scorers score, the playmakers playmake and the plumbers plumb.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

MurderOnIce wrote:I think Yzerman is our dream comparison for Spezza. Remember when he came into the league he was a top ten scorer. I think he scored something like 142 pts (didn't check but someone can correct that). Anyway, he committed himself to improving his defensive game and became a cup winning leader. He didn't make the transition overnight and his offense hurt through the transition. (Probably his defense took time as well).

The well rounded player who came out the other end is the guy you can build your team around. (Alfie will retire sometime) So we can either be patient and allow some maturation here or we can abandon the effort to develope him into a well rounded player and let him go tag points as his most important/only contribution.

Or you could build a balanced team and let the scorers score, the playmakers playmake and the plumbers plumb.

I hear what you are saying, however it is hard to argue with the success Detroit enjoyed when Yzerman expanded his role. In today's salary cap world it is hard to pay for the scorers who only score and compliment them with other players who are good enough to play the tough minutes unless you have a scouting staff/player development team that can churn out talent that matches player turnover.

shabbs wrote:

MurderOnIce wrote:I think Yzerman is our dream comparison for Spezza. Remember when he came into the league he was a top ten scorer. I think he scored something like 142 pts (didn't check but someone can correct that). Anyway, he committed himself to improving his defensive game and became a cup winning leader. He didn't make the transition overnight and his offense hurt through the transition. (Probably his defense took time as well).

The well rounded player who came out the other end is the guy you can build your team around. (Alfie will retire sometime) So we can either be patient and allow some maturation here or we can abandon the effort to develope him into a well rounded player and let him go tag points as his most important/only contribution.

I'm curious, what was Yzerman's salary during those times relative to the team?

Not relative to the team but here are his career numbers. BIG $$$

$700,000
1990-91	$1,300,000	$600,000	86%
1991-92	$1,400,000	$100,000	8%
1992-93	$1,500,000	$100,000	7%
1993-94	$3,214,520	$1,714,520	114%
1994-95	$1,850,473 Contract = $3,190,470	($1,364,047)	-42%	Players' Strike: 48 out of 84 games played. Most players only received +/- 58% of the amount listed.
1995-96	$3,703,800	$1,853,327	100%
1996-97	$4,025,000	$321,200	9%
1997-98	$5,079,000	$1,054,000	26%
1998-99	$4,800,000	($279,000)	-5%
1999-00	$6,000,000	$1,200,000	25%
2000-01	$8,000,000	$2,000,000	33%
2001-02	$7,500,000	($500,000)	-6%
2002-03	$8,500,000	$1,000,000	13%
2003-04	$5,849,823	($2,650,177)	-31%
2004-05	Lockout	Complete season lockout: Some players joined various teams in North America and Europe and were paid to do so but none got an NHL salary.
2005-06	$1,250,000	($4,599,823)	-79%

MurderOnIce wrote:I hear what you are saying, however it is hard to argue with the success Detroit enjoyed when Yzerman expanded his role. In today's salary cap world it is hard to pay for the scorers who only score and compliment them with other players who are good enough to play the tough minutes unless you have a scouting staff/player development team that can churn out talent that matches player turnover.

Did Detroit's success have anything to do with an upgrade in personnel across the board?

Yzerman is a great player and perhaps a unique one. So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Spezza to become Yzerman. There's nothing wrong with a player making the most of what he's got instead of trying to find something he doesn't have.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

MurderOnIce wrote:I hear what you are saying, however it is hard to argue with the success Detroit enjoyed when Yzerman expanded his role. In today's salary cap world it is hard to pay for the scorers who only score and compliment them with other players who are good enough to play the tough minutes unless you have a scouting staff/player development team that can churn out talent that matches player turnover.

Did Detroit's success have anything to do with an upgrade in personnel across the board?

Yzerman is a great player and perhaps a unique one. So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Spezza to become Yzerman. There's nothing wrong with a player making the most of what he's got instead of trying to find something he doesn't have.

I am not sure I agree. As I said in the initial post our dream scenario is that he is Yzerman. If he becomes a guy who can play in all situations effectively and still put up 80 points, he becomes much more effective. Look at Hossa as an example (although Hossa's speed is far better). Hossa plays PP, SH and 5 on 5 with equal success. Spezza has size, hockey sense, decptive speed to go along with great hands. Remember defence is taught and offense is instinct, there should be no problem having Spezza learn some defense.

Besides if he is playing in all situations, perhaps our #1 power play unit won't stay out for 1:50 of every 2:00 penalty. They are cooked for the last 50 seconds. That has been one of my pet peeves since the 'Pizza line' was established. Get the Diddle off the ice when you are tired.

MurderOnIce wrote:

I am not sure I agree. As I said in the initial post our dream scenario is that he is Yzerman.

OK so we're talking about Spezza and you typed dream so I hate to do this but it's pretty well inevitable....

Dare to dream.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

MurderOnIce wrote:

I am not sure I agree. As I said in the initial post our dream scenario is that he is Yzerman.

OK so we're talking about Spezza and you typed dream so I hate to do this but it's pretty well inevitable....

Dare to dream.