ALL Spezza talk - to trade, not to trade, rant, rave etc.

PKC wrote:

N4L wrote:I dont know if Lidstrom is where he was a year ago in all seriousness... The discussion is more about forwards here but this is just my opinion about Datsyuk, I think he is the best all around player in the world. Not the most domiante (although defensivly he might be in terms of forwards) but just a guy that's going to shut things down, calm things down, force the other team to do things they dont want, so on.

As for Ovechkin, there is a reason why his team is getting lit up night after night, they wont be winning a cup giving up 4, 5 goals a night.

Your logic doesn't make any sense some times. Let me ask you something: Imagine you're the coach of the Washington Capitals. You tap Alex on the shoulder and tell him his line is on. What do you say to him: a) Alex we need you to dump the puck into the offensive zone and sit back, make sure you clog up the neutral zone and force your player into traffic or b) get out there and score some Diddling goals?

How doesnt that make sense? If Ovechkin and the rest of his team dont learn to play on both sides of the puck they wont be winning the cup.

That's the problem with Washington IMO and you are starting to see it, you cant always count on blowing teams out, you have to learn how to A) dump the puck in. B) play a close checking game. Things will not always open up and you can go insane, that's why I think Crosby and Datsyuk are very comparable at this point, Crosby is learning how to do that and do it effectivly.

I dont think Crosby will be out scoring AO for the next little bit but Im sure he will take that cup over anything AO has at this point. He has to learn the other sides to the game IMO. Datsyuk is a master of it, Crosby is still learning but becoming very dependable.

That's just how I view the game and how it should be played. Winning teams do everything well.

PKC wrote:

wprager wrote:I think Datsyuk is the Russian team's top-center because they are weak down the middle. It's the opposite for the Canadians. Not that I'm in any way saying he's not a good top-line center, but I doubt he will lead the tournament in scoring among centers. Ovechkina nd Crosby -- for sure, those are contenders.

With Malkin and Datsyuk, I wouldn't exactly say that they are weak down the middle. They have two of the best centers in the NHL, their wing depth is insane though.

Morazov isnt exactly a sloutch either, he's a that teams capatain and could easily play in The NHL. Federov is an expierenced vet as well.

Malkin is a not a good center, though.

PKC wrote:

Gohan wrote:Fair enough KFC, fair enough....still the Spezza comparison is a little absurd.

I wasn't arguing the Spezza comparison. I think it's dumb too. The whole point I was trying to make was that some comparisons can't be made. Like comparing Datsyuk to Ovechkin and Crosby who are both almost 8-10 years younger and are already far more dominant players than he is.

Yeah I see you point

N4L wrote:I dont know if Lidstrom is where he was a year ago in all seriousness... The discussion is more about forwards here but this is just my opinion about Datsyuk, I think he is the best all around player in the world. Not the most domiante (although defensivly he might be in terms of forwards) but just a guy that's going to shut things down, calm things down, force the other team to do things they dont want, so on.

As for Ovechkin, there is a reason why his team is getting lit up night after night, they wont be winning a cup giving up 4, 5 goals a night.

I don't think there are a lot of people who would disagree with that. It doesn't seem to be mere coincidence that Datsyuk and Zetterberg's numbers are down this year...

put Lidstrom on this team 3 or 4 years ago and I wonder what this team would have done, and what detroit would not have done...

I still stand by it.

If I am Brian Murray and Spezza and Datsyuk are both UFA, I take Spezza going forward.

Also we have a guy I would want on the ice with one minute left, either way. Daniel Alfredsson.

111519 wrote:put Lidstrom on this team 3 or 4 years ago and I wonder what this team would have done, and what detroit would not have done...

If you want to talk about it from a Spezza perspective, the closest he's had to having Datsyuk's blue-line was in '05-'06 with Chara, Redden, Philchenkov, Meszaros and Pothier. He put up better numbers than Datsyuk or Zetterberg ever had (90 points in 68 games, which is pretty spectacular at 21), but keep in mind I'm pretty sure league scoring was higher back then, and it certainly didn't make him play better defence.

Usually I'm on the other side of the fence, but this time I can't argue for Spezza over Datsyuk or Zetterberg (albeit I'm biased in that they're two of my favourite players in the league). It should also be pointed out that while Spezza is probably not much worse defensively than they were at that age, their development into Selke-calibre players is more of an exception than a linear progression that every player follows. So, if Spezza becomes that good defensively it'll be a hugely pleasant surprise rather than something you can count on now.

Besideswhich, I don't think Spezza has the acceleration and agility to be as good a defensive player as either of those two are. That doesn't mean he isn't a good player, though.

Also, it should be pointed out that this is all hypothetical because Zetsyuk aren't going anywhere and I can't really think of any prospects who project as similar players (granted, even they as prospects didn't project to be remotely as good as they are now).

Maybe Tarasenko if he sticks it out in the NHL, gets a great mentor, and develops perfectly.

SpezDispenser wrote:

111519 wrote:I still stand by it.

If I am Brian Murray and Spezza and Datsyuk are both UFA, I take Spezza going forward.

Also we have a guy I would want on the ice with one minute left, either way. Daniel Alfredsson.

You would take Spezza over Datsyuk? That's...interesting.

the key is going forward, Spezza is 27, Datsyuk is 31. On this team, with the defencemen we have coming up in the next 2-3 years, yes I take Spezza.

I just think it will be interesting to look at their games 3 years from now.

TeamRenzo wrote:

marakh wrote:Yeah. I think wining a Stanley cup, with 97 regular season points and a Selke nomination should be enough to make a point about being the best player, even if I'm not the biggest stats fan.

With all due respects do Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby, they are not Selke nominations yet.

First off as one the biggest Spezza supportors I do not believe he is top 10 centres in the NHL, might be top 15.

Spezza, in my mind is a great player, not elite such as Crosby, Malkin, Getzlaf, Datsyuk etc.

I am shocked that people are calling Datsyuk the best player in the world. Maybe two years ago you could make taht argument but with Crosby and Ovie stepping up it is a two horse race.

Datsyuk may have won Selke trophies but I think RR trophy, hart trophies etc carry more weight.

Defense wins championship. AS awesome as Crosby and Malkin are, without Jordan Staal and Fleury Washington would have beaten them in the Eastern semis last year, and Washington's shutdown line is not exactly what I would call elite. Case in point, Jordan Staal would have been traded for a winger a long time ago if he hadn't his defensive game.
You can make a case about Lidstrom feeding Datsyuk and Zetterberg the puck, but they can still kill penalties like the best in the world and they still are over a PPG most of their careers, neck and neck in there with the best.

Datsyuk's Selke, I wouldn't give a Dung if he was Kesler or Fisher, ie 50-60 points players, but the guy had 97 points while being the best defensive player in the game, 2 years in a row. Haven't you guys seen how he made Ottawa look like rookies 2 days ago?

PKC wrote:

N4L wrote:Im talking about today, at this very moment I always have been. Who is the one player I want on my team that has the potential to dominate a game on offense but will also shut down the other teams top offensive player? It's Datsyuk. You can absolutely compare teams best players with one another.

I guarantee that Datsyuk isn't nearly as dominant a player without having one of the best defensemen in hockey history playing behind him. If you're looking for that one player, you're talking about his teammate Nick.

WHen Gonchar was injured, Pittsburg was not a playoff team. That happened 2 years in a row, everytime Gonchar was not playing, that team was average at best. You remember 2 years ago, at the end of the season when Crosby was injured? That team was a better Pittsburg team than the one earlier this year or earlier last year when Gonchar was injured.
You can go down the list. Niedermayer out, ANahiem and Getzlaf/Perry were bottom-feeders. Markov in Montreal, etc. Look how underwhelming our transition game is without a 19 year old rookie who can get out of the zone on his own.

What I'm trying to say is, while Datsyuk wouldn't have had as good a career without Lidstrom, so are most of the best forwards in the game.

marakh wrote:

PKC wrote:

N4L wrote:Im talking about today, at this very moment I always have been. Who is the one player I want on my team that has the potential to dominate a game on offense but will also shut down the other teams top offensive player? It's Datsyuk. You can absolutely compare teams best players with one another.

I guarantee that Datsyuk isn't nearly as dominant a player without having one of the best defensemen in hockey history playing behind him. If you're looking for that one player, you're talking about his teammate Nick.

WHen Gonchar was injured, Pittsburg was not a playoff team. That happened 2 years in a row, everytime Gonchar was not playing, that team was average at best. You remember 2 years ago, at the end of the season when Crosby was injured? That team was a better Pittsburg team than the one earlier this year or earlier last year when Gonchar was injured.
You can go down the list. Niedermayer out, ANahiem and Getzlaf/Perry were bottom-feeders. Markov in Montreal, etc. Look how underwhelming our transition game is without a 19 year old rookie who can get out of the zone on his own.

What I'm trying to say is, while Datsyuk wouldn't have had as good a career without Lidstrom, so are most of the best forwards in the game.

exactly

if there is no one to feed them the puck-and let them take risks with the knowledge there is a good defence backing them up, it is hard for any forward to shine. 2-3 years from now with karlsson, wiercoch, cowen, phillips and volch i think we have one of the best defences in the league-and it is for this reason i would take a 30 year old spezza over a 34 year old datsyuk.

I'll reserve judgment. I'd like to see how the two of them are doing at those first. I still like Datsyuk's two-way play over Spezza's at this point.

I think we're all done venting one way or the other.

I forgot thsi thread exsisted....

Brings back some fond memories.

The nice thing is I can go through this thread without saying to myself "man, was I ever wrong". Sucks for The Sens but still.