What the hell are the Sens doing?

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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:58 am

    PKC wrote:So let me get this straight hemlock...you think tanking is wrong and weak, but you think if we don't finish with a top 5 pick that that would be the worst case scenario and that someone should be fired for it.

    This logic is simply stunning...I think you all need to take a step back. I don't think the playoffs are THAT far out of the picture. Will it be difficult? Absolutely. But look at the conference and look at the teams ahead of us.

    Teams are free-falling and losing like no one else's business. In our last two games, we actually made up 4 points on 8th place. Look at Pittsburgh, they can barely win a game anymore with the two premier talents in the league.

    Toronto is suddenly right there in front of us. Florida will most likely be falling apart any day now. Carolina is already starting to fall apart.

    These trends may not continue for both the Senators and the teams in front of them. But for someone to say that we need to lose or else someone needs to be fired is almost a little ridiculous, no?

    No I don't think it's ridulous at all. Do you honestly see us passing 4 teams to get into the playoffs? We are still 11 points out, and even with games in hand, it's a long way to go. Pittsburgh is struggling yes, but once they get Gonchar back, they should be better....well better than us. Carolina is terrible defensively, so yes, we could catch them, as well as the Leafs, but that still leaves Florida. What makes you think they'll just fall off? They gotten great goaltending from Anderson and solid play from Vokoun. Buffalo is also hovering around the 8th spot. I think it's optimistic to think we have a shot.

    I didn't once say it's the end of the world if we don't finish with a lottery pick. I have said repeatedly, that finishing 9th or 10th is. Hell I don't even want to finish 8th if the result is a repeat of last years pounding.

    I don't think Murray should lose his job. I never have, but I think they he probably will depending on how he handles the rest of the season. Like I said, the direction is what disturbs me. There doesn't seem to be one. Bringing Elliot up is a sideways move for the Sens, and a downright terrible move for the Baby Sens. I'm all for him getting his look, but not at the expense of a post season run in Bingo, or costing the Senators draft positions. Murray is a smart hockey man who's been around long enough to know that this season is more than likely toast. Actively trying to improve our position in the standings if we cannot make the playoffs is just stupid, especially with a draft as nice as this one. It's exactly what we (I don't mean you personally, but Sens fans in general) used to laugh at the Leafs for the past few seasons. Look how that's turned out for them. Nothing in the stable worth writing home about. They have Schenn, but they had to trade up to get him.

    I would be alot more positive if this were a new thing. But this has gone on for parts of 2 seasons, over a calendar year now. I just don't see how it gets better, particularly when our team is worse talent wise this year than last. People can say all they like about losing Redden and Mez, but it's painfully obvious that we are suffering back there.

    I certainly wasn't expecting everyone to agree with this thread, and I'd like to have optimism that we can recover from this deficit, but simply put, the evidence leads me to believe we will continue to suck, and the actively trying to make the team better is just shooting ourselves in the foot.

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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by wprager on Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:29 am

    Man, that was a lot of reading. I'll keep my post short:
    1. I want them not only to compete but to win. Every night.
    2. If we get a top-10 to top-5 pick, great, if not, we've got lots of talent coming up and two 1st round picks this year.
    3. I want them to make the playoffs, dammit, or die trying (figuratively -- giving their all).

    I can't be a fan and think otherwise.

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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Phoenix30 on Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:38 am

    hemlock wrote:
    Phoenix30 wrote:
    hemlock wrote:
    Phoenix30 wrote:I like the idea of keeping Elliott up but I don't think it will translate into many wins especially if Harts plays Auld more. The 2 week conditioning stint will really show what kind of team we have while giving Glass an opportunity to play more. If Gerber does get waived it opens another area of concern and thats the lack of goaltending depth in the minors. Something which needs to also be addressed.

    I agree though I think we missed the boat with CLB unless they are interested in Kuba and a bigger deal is in the works. That being said Kelly and Vermette can still get us players and picks elsewhere. Every team in the west still has an opportunity to make the playoffs and would really like either of those two. Two teams we could look at dealing with are Edmonton (Kelly) and Nashville (Vermette). Both are close and need to address areas.

    If we become sellers which I think will happen we can still end up in the top 10 heck maybe even the top 5 with the loss of experience players being moved out. That being said even if we did end up in the 10-14 range we are still going to get a good player.

    As much as I like one of the top 5 picks I want to see our team be competitive which hopefully will show they have gotten through the challenges that have presented themselves.

    This is operating under the assumption that Murray actually makes moves. Remember the bloody shambles last deadline day was? I don't want rush decisions, or moves for the sake of moves, but maybe Murray is asking too much for his assets.

    I don't understand the last paragraph though. You want competitiveness or wins? Cause that is 2 different things. You can be competitive and still lose every night. That's what I want to see. We were doing that just fine until we decided to plunder Bingo of it's best player.

    This is me is a real lack of direction on the part of management. This isn't even making a choice on which direction they want the team to go in. Want to lose? Play Gerber and Auld (who appears to have come back to earth). Want to win? Elliott may out perform the other 2, but this alone will not make us a contender. To do that, they need to fix the d. Bring in someone to start the rush, hit a forward in full stride with a pass consistently. Failing to do that is failing to do what it takes to make this team really better. Elliot right now only makes us superficially better, nothing more. Better to let him make the AHL his monkey imo, than helping the Sens win 5-10 extra games in Ottawa. That may rob us of a lottery pick. Everyone talks trade and it seems like people always mention, let's target this team or that team for their pick, but seem to forget that their is a lottery pick to be had for nothing here.

    The only thing I can think of is that this is Murray/Melnyk way of making it seem like we are trying to be competitive, while not actually doing it. They may be thinking, bring up Elliott to appease the fans who aren't ready to accept the reality of the teams situation, then at the deadline, just blow it up.

    The draft is the cheapest and best way to load up. That's just the way it is. Why trade a ton of assets away, just to get a guy like J-Bo, when we are already on course to land Hedman/Cowen for nothing? It just makes no sense to me.

    To answer your question. I want this team to be competitive and play as a team with "Heart and Desire". If this translates into wins then all the better. We may not make the playoffs but I want to see this team show they give a dam. Anything less than an honest effort is BS. Who would want to be know as a talented team and tank the season just to get a better pick.

    Keeping Elliott up for the next 2 weeks also gives the Sens a better idea of what kind of player he is. It also gives him a very good taste of the NHL and what it takes to stay. This is the best opportunity to give Elliott a chane to play. If he does so so then he knows what he has to do to take it to the next level. Anything more and it puts our goalie concern a little more at easy.

    Your right targeting teams is being mentioned. I have even made those comments and its because as an arm chair GM I look at possible trade partners where things might be of mutual benifit. Those on the cusp of making the playoffs with team depth may very well offer up their 1st come the deadline it if meant making the playoffs. Based on history this is a classic Risk vs Reward situation. Teams like Edmonton need help at faceoffs/PK and its been widely talked about here in Oil country.

    Now granted I have never heard Fishers name attached but names like Vermette, Spezza, and Kelly have been floated about in the media, talk shows and in general conversation. Heck does LA even take a gamble to pick up a key piece by giving up a young player and a pick if it meant making the playoffs and reaping the rewards (money, fan excitment).

    Muckler really destroyed our depth by giving away picks for rentals and I have got to commend Murray for not going down that road. I would really love to see Ottawa pick up a Cowan or Travarese....sorry not a Hedman fan...but any player in the top 14 is going to be something special.

    The two days I look forward to are deadline day and draft day because you never know whats going to happen. My guess Kelly and Vermette find new homes for young players and Kuba fetches us another 1st. McAmmond may also fetch us a mid to late rounder. I really do think that Murray has an idea and that is to have the players work things out and make his moves for the future on deadline day. Moving those players will free up the cash to take care of the D in the off season.

    As for baby sens it does put a strain on them by calling them up but it also gives Murray an idea how good the depth is down there. I have already mentioned is goaltending depth. What happens next season when Gerber is gone and Elliott is up here. I suspect Murray is going to either sign another college goalie or trade for a goalie prospect.

    Now all that being said, I would be really disappointed if Murray does nothing by the deadline regardless where we are in the standings. Especially if the Leafs make moves towards the future.

    Not a Hedman fan? Too small with little offensive and skating ability I guess ;)

    Murray cannot afford to do nothing at the deadline, be it reloading for the future, or making an effort, in vain, to improve now. After the lack of moves last season, he'd be fired at 3:01pm on deadline if he sat on his hands. He has to be a seller imo.

    As I said, I am fine with Elliot for a couple of weeks. Beyond that though, we are spinning our wheels. This season is over, and as soon as Murray/Melnyk admit it, the better off we'll be next season and beyond.

    You mentioned that this is the best chance to give Elliott an opportunity to play. His time will come. Next season he and Auld will almost certainly will be the duo in Ottawa. I'd rather he go to Bingo, and with the kids there, experience a playoff run. This is good for the entire organization. This isn't just about the Sens. I'd rather he come back next year after having a taste of it now, hungry as hell to win that spot outright. Auld is a great teammate and I think some healthy competition for the spot will do them both some good. I would like to think that next season will be a better climate around the Sens, having made roster moves and bringing in some new faces.
    I don't see the logic in having Elliot here now. He isn't the saviour. He doesn't even represent our teams biggest need. Let him have his stint and send him down, telling him to come back in September and force us to keep him.

    I see your point about making deals at the deadline and someone being desperate enough to deal a first. That's a crapshoot though, where said pick might end up. We already know we'll have a fairly nice pick, so why rely on someone else? Why even jeopardize our pick being anything lower than a lottery pick? So we can finish 10th? No thanks. This isn't even tanking. I'm not suggesting that we bench guys to avoid winning etc, just stay the course. Trade some guys like Vermette and Kuba (and Fisher, if there is a god)for picks or prospects, send Elliott down, and that alone should guarantee a lottery pick. This seems fairly simple to me.

    I really am wondering what the hell is going on with management now though. I'm pretty friggin steamed that CBJ traded for Williams. With all the chatter we heard about CBJ, what the hell happened? I'd like to think that Melnyk/Murray are quietly standing pat to let us slip in the standings, but this Elliott call up seems to suggest otherwise. Murray's inactivity could just be exactly what I am hoping for though.

    I pray on draft day, Murray can move some of these contracts. Fisher has less goals than Picard and Foligno. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that. He's tied in goal scoring with Chris Diddle Phillips and Shean Donovan. That contract has to go, by any means necessary. Speaking of Phillips, his +/- is disgusting. For his cap hit, he can walk too. He is declining, and I don't want to end up losing yet another vet for nothing. Trade him now while he's got nice value. Don't bother with the Sens are bad defensively argument either because they've allowed one less goal than the Red Wings this season.

    I wasn't impressed with Hedman at the WJC. From what I what I have heard on TSN is that he is talented but isn't overly physical which is contray to him being compared to a Swedish Pronger. I rather take my chance on a skilled forward or a big kid like Cowan or Taylor Doherty.

    I also think having Elliott at the moment is a good idea and I am sure that once Gerbers 2 week conditioning stink is over Elliott will be sent back down. Unless of course he sent packing.
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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:40 am

    wprager wrote:Man, that was a lot of reading. I'll keep my post short:
    1. I want them not only to compete but to win. Every night.
    2. If we get a top-10 to top-5 pick, great, if not, we've got lots of talent coming up and two 1st round picks this year.
    3. I want them to make the playoffs, dammit, or die trying (figuratively -- giving their all).

    I can't be a fan and think otherwise.

    Well said pragues. If this team can't or doesn't do those things then it's probably time for a major change in direction. If they do put in the effort but fall a bit short then at least we know we've got some good pieces going forward and don't need to totally blow the thing up.


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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:26 am

    wprager wrote:Man, that was a lot of reading. I'll keep my post short:
    1. I want them not only to compete but to win. Every night.
    2. If we get a top-10 to top-5 pick, great, if not, we've got lots of talent coming up and two 1st round picks this year.
    3. I want them to make the playoffs, dammit, or die trying (figuratively -- giving their all).

    I can't be a fan and think otherwise.

    I see your points. I just think that this team is broken and in need of a pretty sizable overhaul. It's a catch 22 for fans yes, of course you want them to win, but at the same time, if we can grab a blue chipper, plus a solid player in this draft, we are really solidifying our future.

    Basically for me, it comes down to if we are going to suck, we might as well suck hard to better the team in the long run. It's been pretty tough to be a Sens fan over the last year or so, so what's another couple of months. I wouldn't necessarily agree that we have "lots" of talent coming up. I think that if a rebuild is done, it will be pretty quick, if we can get value for some of the pieces we've got. Couple that with a great draft, and the turnaround will be relatively short, whereas teams like Chicago and LA seemed to have taken years and years to rebuild.

    My biggest fear is that we'll pull a Leafs and try hanging on for too many seasons before finally admitting that wholesale changes are needed, then having precious few assets to help with a rebuild. The Leafs waited until some of their players were past their prime and were also hurt by NMC/NTC's. Their rebuild will take quite a few years in my estimation. That's definitely what I don't want to see happen with the Sens.

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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:30 am

    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    wprager wrote:Man, that was a lot of reading. I'll keep my post short:
    1. I want them not only to compete but to win. Every night.
    2. If we get a top-10 to top-5 pick, great, if not, we've got lots of talent coming up and two 1st round picks this year.
    3. I want them to make the playoffs, dammit, or die trying (figuratively -- giving their all).

    I can't be a fan and think otherwise.

    Well said pragues. If this team can't or doesn't do those things then it's probably time for a major change in direction. If they do put in the effort but fall a bit short then at least we know we've got some good pieces going forward and don't need to totally blow the thing up.

    They haven't been doing those things (competing) though. Not consistently anyway. I find myself wondering which Sens team we are going to see pretty much every time they play.

    Sure it would be great if we could make the playoffs, all while giving Elliott a chance to stick, trading off some deadwood contracts to fix our cap, and somehow pulling some nice draft choices. It just isn't realistic I don't believe. I really believe that we should either 1) roll up the sleeves, acquire a PMD and make a serious run or 2) cut our losses, and look to next season and beyond. Option 2 seems like the most realistic option.
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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:17 am

    I have no illusions that we'll go on some dream run, I just want to see them build off of these wins and go into next season after having a strong second half of a season. Isn't that better than having a Sens team that's gone from world beaters in October 07 to totally craptastic from December 07 straight through to April 09?? At least we'd have something to build off for next season if we finish strong.


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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by ddt on Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:54 am

    hemlock wrote:Basically for me, it comes down to if we are going to suck, we might as well suck hard to better the team in the long run. It's been pretty tough to be a Sens fan over the last year or so, so what's another couple of months. I wouldn't necessarily agree that we have "lots" of talent coming up. I think that if a rebuild is done, it will be pretty quick, if we can get value for some of the pieces we've got. Couple that with a great draft, and the turnaround will be relatively short, whereas teams like Chicago and LA seemed to have taken years and years to rebuild.

    My biggest fear is that we'll pull a Leafs and try hanging on for too many seasons before finally admitting that wholesale changes are needed, then having precious few assets to help with a rebuild. The Leafs waited until some of their players were past their prime and were also hurt by NMC/NTC's. Their rebuild will take quite a few years in my estimation. That's definitely what I don't want to see happen with the Sens.

    My fear is that if we keep on losing, that same culture of losing will set in. Look at where that left the Leafs. Their rebuild includes getting rid of all veterans. They're in for another few years of mediocrity before the results will be visible.

    You keep saying that you want Elliott back in the AHL so the young kids can learn in a positive, winning environment. So what, you want our kids up here to learn how to be losers?
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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:00 am

    ddt wrote:
    hemlock wrote:Basically for me, it comes down to if we are going to suck, we might as well suck hard to better the team in the long run. It's been pretty tough to be a Sens fan over the last year or so, so what's another couple of months. I wouldn't necessarily agree that we have "lots" of talent coming up. I think that if a rebuild is done, it will be pretty quick, if we can get value for some of the pieces we've got. Couple that with a great draft, and the turnaround will be relatively short, whereas teams like Chicago and LA seemed to have taken years and years to rebuild.

    My biggest fear is that we'll pull a Leafs and try hanging on for too many seasons before finally admitting that wholesale changes are needed, then having precious few assets to help with a rebuild. The Leafs waited until some of their players were past their prime and were also hurt by NMC/NTC's. Their rebuild will take quite a few years in my estimation. That's definitely what I don't want to see happen with the Sens.

    My fear is that if we keep on losing, that same culture of losing will set in. Look at where that left the Leafs. Their rebuild includes getting rid of all veterans. They're in for another few years of mediocrity before the results will be visible.

    You keep saying that you want Elliott back in the AHL so the young kids can learn in a positive, winning environment. So what, you want our kids up here to learn how to be losers?

    I agree. I want them to work hard and have a great second half even if they fall short. I want them going into next season having spent this last half on a winning record. I also want them to start auditioning guys like Zubov, Regin, Z. Smith and so on.


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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:05 am

    ddt wrote:
    hemlock wrote:Basically for me, it comes down to if we are going to suck, we might as well suck hard to better the team in the long run. It's been pretty tough to be a Sens fan over the last year or so, so what's another couple of months. I wouldn't necessarily agree that we have "lots" of talent coming up. I think that if a rebuild is done, it will be pretty quick, if we can get value for some of the pieces we've got. Couple that with a great draft, and the turnaround will be relatively short, whereas teams like Chicago and LA seemed to have taken years and years to rebuild.

    My biggest fear is that we'll pull a Leafs and try hanging on for too many seasons before finally admitting that wholesale changes are needed, then having precious few assets to help with a rebuild. The Leafs waited until some of their players were past their prime and were also hurt by NMC/NTC's. Their rebuild will take quite a few years in my estimation. That's definitely what I don't want to see happen with the Sens.

    My fear is that if we keep on losing, that same culture of losing will set in. Look at where that left the Leafs. Their rebuild includes getting rid of all veterans. They're in for another few years of mediocrity before the results will be visible.

    You keep saying that you want Elliott back in the AHL so the young kids can learn in a positive, winning environment. So what, you want our kids up here to learn how to be losers?

    No, the kids that are in Bingo should stay there and help Bingo, unless of course we have no choice. If Murray trades away 2 or 3 guys like Vermette, Neil and McAmmond, we may have no choice but to call someone up. The same goes for Elliott I suppose with Gerber, should he be dealt. That's a necessity thing though, not a choice thing.

    I agree that there could be a few years of mediocrity if there is a rebuild. It really depends I think on how much we keep (Spezza, Heatley etc).

    My point about Elliott is this: If this is just a 2 week stint, that is fine. But keeping him up here does more harm than good. It really hurts Bingo's chances, and realistically, he isn't going to be the difference maker that turns this team around. I'm not against the guy. I want him to succeed. I don't want to come off as anti-Elliott by any means. He's played well and has a SV% of .939. That's impressive. However I think the organization as a whole is best serves with him in Bingo this year.

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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:43 am

    hemlock wrote:
    1. Elliott back to Bingo, for reasons I've already stated. I'd be fine with say another half dozen games or so though
    2. Contracts like Vermette, Neil, Kelly moved at the deadline
    3. Use Kuba to fetch a 1st and/or a nice prospect
    4. Move one of the big contracts. My choice is Fisher, then Heatley, then Spezza.
    5. Use said free cap space to obtain (via trade or FA) the biggest need for this team, a true offensive d-man who can help organize our pathetic transition game.
    6. Murray can get off his Donkey and make a move already. I don't want moves for the sake of moves, but I have this feeling that we've missed the boat here with Columbus. If we could have had a kid like Russell, why wasn't that move made? I am really starting to wonder just what the Diddle is going on behind the scenes with this club.
    In what world is Kuba actually worth a 1st and a prospect? He's not the only offensive D-man that may be available...On most teams, he's a 4th - maybe 3rd - D-man. Other than his red hot start, he hasn't put up big numbers by any stretch of the imagination. Any team that would give up that much for him would be foolish.

    I agree that the team in Bingo would be better served with Elliott in net, but the playoffs aren't yet out of the question for this team. Within 6 games, we'll know where we stand and what we need to do, so that seems like the right timeline. Until then, there's no rush to make any decisions about the goalies. Send Gerber down for conditioning and then if the playoffs are as out of reach as people expect them to be, then bring him back and send Elliott down.
    Same goes for moving players/contracts.
    And who knows if Russell was ever even on the table...That was never confirmed by any source (let alone a legitimate one) and seems unlikely nonetheless.
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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by PTFlea on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:46 am

    ddt wrote:
    My fear is that if we keep on losing, that same culture of losing will set in. Look at where that left the Leafs. Their rebuild includes getting rid of all veterans. They're in for another few years of mediocrity before the results will be visible.

    You keep saying that you want Elliott back in the AHL so the young kids can learn in a positive, winning environment. So what, you want our kids up here to learn how to be losers?

    I feel the same. I want this core group to learn what it takes to win. They won't get to the playoffs, but a full year of losing would have hurt a lot more than at the very least grinding out the final half of the schedule.
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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by ddt on Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:33 pm

    hemlock wrote:No, the kids that are in Bingo should stay there and help Bingo, unless of course we have no choice. If Murray trades away 2 or 3 guys like Vermette, Neil and McAmmond, we may have no choice but to call someone up. The same goes for Elliott I suppose with Gerber, should he be dealt. That's a necessity thing though, not a choice thing.

    I agree that there could be a few years of mediocrity if there is a rebuild. It really depends I think on how much we keep (Spezza, Heatley etc).

    My point about Elliott is this: If this is just a 2 week stint, that is fine. But keeping him up here does more harm than good. It really hurts Bingo's chances, and realistically, he isn't going to be the difference maker that turns this team around. I'm not against the guy. I want him to succeed. I don't want to come off as anti-Elliott by any means. He's played well and has a SV% of .939. That's impressive. However I think the organization as a whole is best serves with him in Bingo this year.

    To be honest, I wasn't really thinking of Elliott, nor the kids that are currently in Bingo. I was talking more in terms of Lee, Foligno, Winchester, Picard, and to some extent, even Spezza. I'm afraid of what this season may have done to them already, and what it can do if we don't start winning some games at least.

    And by winning "some games", I think we're already out of the running for a top-5 pick.

    The bottom line, to me, is whether it's OK for the Senators to be an organization (with their current personel) where it's OK to lose. If you plan on getting rid of most everyone and starting from scratch, to be successfull again in 5 years, thats' one thing, but if we plan on keeping a nucleus of our current players, then the team has to be careful what it teaches them.
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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

    Post by Acrobat on Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:52 pm

    I'd have to argue for sending Elliot down.

    Let Bingo win, even if it means Ottawa not being the strongest next year due to the feared "culture of losing" (which I don't believe will happen - Spezza, Heatley, Alfie, Phillips, Volchenkov, Fisher have all tasted the thrill of a SCF run, and you can't tell me they don't want to finish the job before they retire)

    The kids will all be ready in two years, but we will have built up the stock in the cupboards, and will be primed for the future. If we then find ourselves in a position to make a deadline deal (like Detroit for Bertuzzi a few years ago, or Pittsburgh for Hossa last year), we won't end up in the same position we are now.

    We also have the benefit of a GM who thinks in the longer-term, so a couple of years of high-end restocking could go a long way towards turning us into the Detroit of the Eastern Conference.

    Think Hedman or Cowan with Karlsson on our blue-line for the next 10 years, and recall what Redden and Phillips were able to do for us.

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    Re: What the hell are the Sens doing?

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      Current date/time is Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:13 am