I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

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    Cronie
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by Cronie on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:37 pm

    And when it rains, it pours as they say. Smile

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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by Guest on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:43 pm

    Neely4Life wrote:Well if there is a new coach coming in, this will be SPezza's 5th coach in 6 seasons... Ill let people draw their own conclussions, Ive had mine drawn for a while about the guy.

    I am torn on the guy myself. There are some nights and stretches of a game where he looks like the best player in the world. Like that overtime against Montreal. He was great. Then he giggles, gets lazy, takes too long a shift, plays with zero discipline, it is frustrating to watch. If he was 100% dedicated we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by PTFlea on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:44 pm

    Jordo wrote:Just a random thought- do you think sitting Smith was to light a fire under him so he whips the rest of the team into shape? We know what kind of attitude Smith has when he's in his game... maybe they're trying to get him to come out swinging in the next game and inspire some others? I might be way off- but it's just something to think about. The timing doesn't really make sense...

    I thought that too. Make him pissed so he takes it out on the guys who are doggin' it.

    And yes, I too thought Picard blew last night. I made sure everyone around me knew how much I hated our entire D - especially Picard last night.
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by PTFlea on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:45 pm

    MurderOnIce wrote:I am torn on the guy myself. There are some nights and stretches of a game where he looks like the best player in the world. Like that overtime against Montreal. He was great. Then he giggles, gets lazy, takes too long a shift, plays with zero discipline, it is frustrating to watch. If he was 100% dedicated we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

    Exactly. Some nights I think he's literally ready to step into the top tier of players, other nights it's a nightmare.
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by LethalLehner on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:49 pm

    I found it interesting that I was contacted for comments regarding my season tickets. I think Melnyk or at least members of the organization are concerned that there will be a number of fans that will not renew their season tickets. I am pretty sure that I will but I was told that they have received a fair amount of feedback from season ticket holders throughout this season.

    As for Smith, I too don't understand the reason for sitting him. I am pretty sure this is the first time Smith has ever been a healthy scratch. Unless he is provided a good reason for this stupidity expect him to ask to dealt at the deadline or over the summer.

    As for the game last night, Hartsburg has lost this team a long time ago. I know it is the first game after the break but for that reason alone the players should have been playing with a high level of energy but that was nowhere to be found. I think they deserved the boos last night especially for the 4 min pp where they didn't even get a shot on net.
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by LethalLehner on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:56 pm

    To sit Smith and expect him to break heads the next game, I think is expecting too much. I am sure that he is pissed but don't you think he has been pissed and embarassed since the beginning of the season? For a veteran, he doesn't need to be a healthy scratch to get him to bust heads in the locker room. This is something a guy like Smith attempts to do on all the teams he has been on. The fact that he wasn't even given a reason makes he think that he will just think that management has no clue and that they are grasping at straws.
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by Cronie on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:08 pm

    ElliottRules wrote:To sit Smith and expect him to break heads the next game, I think is expecting too much. I am sure that he is pissed but don't you think he has been pissed and embarassed since the beginning of the season? For a veteran, he doesn't need to be a healthy scratch to get him to bust heads in the locker room. This is something a guy like Smith attempts to do on all the teams he has been on. The fact that he wasn't even given a reason makes he think that he will just think that management has no clue and that they are grasping at straws.

    While I have next to no faith in Mlakar, I think we ALL know that deep-down, Murray knows what he's doing, and if he asked or TOLD Hartsburg to sit Smith, Murray had a reason, and hopefully the desired effect will work and take effect, so to speak, otherwise another wasted opportunity I suppose just passed us by.

    While I wouldn't mind seeing Smith finish out his contract here, I could see him being fed up and just asking to be moved at this juncture.

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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by Guest on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:13 pm

    Cronenbergfan wrote:
    While I have next to no faith in Mlakar, I think we ALL know that deep-down, Murray knows what he's doing, and if he asked or TOLD Hartsburg to sit Smith, Murray had a reason, and hopefully the desired effect will work and take effect, so to speak, otherwise another wasted opportunity I suppose just passed us by.

    While I wouldn't mind seeing Smith finish out his contract here, I could see him being fed up and just asking to be moved at this juncture.

    Dude is a playoff warrior, that is where he adds most value and we are a long way away from talking playoffs (even further after last night's effort). I could see dealing him at the deadline. I love the guy but it would make sense. The team that got him for a playoff run would appreciate the addition I think.
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by beedub on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:25 pm

    I agree thaat there are certainly more problems than Hartsburg. IMO he was just the wrong guy. Murray seems to go the vanilla route in terms of coach and Hartsburg was certainly a vanilla coach. Paddock was a vanilla coach. The team needs a chipoltle coach.... A hot salsa coach... someone who intimidates them or at least has the will to stay on top of their issues through to closure. 1 bag skate all year for a team that has underachieved to this degree is not an acceptable response to me.[/quote]

    I love it. We need a chipotle coach. I love chicken with chipotle sauce. Zing!

    There needs to be whole lot of zing injected into Ottawa's dressing room and bench.

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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by Guest on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:31 pm

    504Heater wrote:
    MurderOnIce wrote:I am torn on the guy myself. There are some nights and stretches of a game where he looks like the best player in the world. Like that overtime against Montreal. He was great. Then he giggles, gets lazy, takes too long a shift, plays with zero discipline, it is frustrating to watch. If he was 100% dedicated we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

    Exactly. Some nights I think he's literally ready to step into the top tier of players, other nights it's a nightmare.

    I genuinely dislike Crosy (mostly because I think he wears make-up). One thing I will say about him though is his compete level is off the charts. If Spezza had Crosby's compete level I think he would be better than Crosby, right now he is not even in the discussion.
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by beedub on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:34 pm

    There are so many story within stories with this team this year.

    Dany Heatley when he is on his game, has got to be in the top 10 of NHL scorers. When he's not on his game.....he's slow, lazy, relies on his little one timer a little too much

    Jason Spezza when he's on his game is one of the most creative, elite players in the game. When he's not on his game, he's slow, lazy, and gives the puck away WAY too much.

    IMO, I would rather have two lesser players who actually gave a Diddle and gave 100% efforts on a near constant basis. Guys who love to play, love to come to the rink, even to practice.

    Both these guys have tremendous upsides, but their downside has been glaringly apparent lately (actually for a while). Their downside is a major distraction, and I hate to use the Ray Emery situation last year, but I will use the 'cancer in the dressing room' cliche.

    Trade one (probably for a loss) and watch the other wake the Diddle up
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by Riprock on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:52 pm

    Deboer must have been wanting more than Hartsburg was willing to take, which would have been more than the Sens were willing to pay out. Why they wouldn't pay for a good coach yet offer the ridiculous contracts they have to undeserving players, is beyond me.

    Point is, Murray is the guy hiring these coaches. Doesn't reflect good on his part when the ones he hires aren't doing well.

    Was Heatley a 'headcase' in Atlanta? Was he a 'headcase' the first few years as a Senator? Spezza's been known to have his fair share of coaching problems.

    Murray's obviously working with what he's given from Melnyk in terms of budget, but he's got to shoulder quite a bit of the blame for this massive problem. But I do not think firing anyone right now is the solution. Losing is the best option for the team right now.

    With the draft coming up and Murray's scouting abilities, let him get us some great players. If we can get a guy like Tavares, Duchene, MSP, Kadri or Kane, great. If we get Hedman or a shutdown D like Cowen, then awesome as well. I think if Cowen is drafted, we gotta look at moving Phillips or Smith, or both. Can't have too many shutdown guys, we need to make room for the offensive guys.
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by davetherave on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:13 pm

    Considering the response to the poll where most seem to feel that Murray and Hartsburg are not the problem, it's a little surprising to read the negative comments directed at the coach.

    My take, for what it's worth:

    Sitting Smith may seem odd to some, but despite his effort, he's just not effective any more.

    Putting stars with megacontracts in the press box only kills their trade value.

    The fundamental issue with the Sens is that they need a fundamental change in their personality. This won't happen overnight.

    IMHO Pete DeBoer went to Florida because he saw he COULD make a dramatic change in a short period. He probably saw that wouldn't happen in Ottawa.

    John Tortorella and Bob Hartley might have been tougher and more colourful, but Hartsburg deserves credit for giving this team a defense-oriented system that gives them chances to compete. Chances that the players squander.

    The Senators were holding their own last night until they decided to play their individual brand of hockey.

    The team won't change until a major trade is made.
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by Cronie on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:27 pm

    wow! Bang on DTR... Well said.

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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by Guest on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:29 pm

    davetherave wrote:Considering the response to the poll where most seem to feel that Murray and Hartsburg are not the problem, it's a little surprising to read the negative comments directed at the coach.

    My take, for what it's worth:

    Sitting Smith may seem odd to some, but despite his effort, he's just not effective any more.

    Putting stars with megacontracts in the press box only kills their trade value.

    The fundamental issue with the Sens is that they need a fundamental change in their personality. This won't happen overnight.

    IMHO Pete DeBoer went to Florida because he saw he COULD make a dramatic change in a short period. He probably saw that wouldn't happen in Ottawa.

    John Tortorella and Bob Hartley might have been tougher and more colourful, but Hartsburg deserves credit for giving this team a defense-oriented system that gives them chances to compete. Chances that the players squander.

    The Senators were holding their own last night until they decided to play their individual brand of hockey.

    The team won't change until a major trade is made.

    Welcome aboard! I have read many of your posts and often agreed. This one not so much. I would take issue with saying Hartsburg has brought in a system that gives them a chance to compete every night and the team squanders it. I am not sure his system is suited to the personelle and I am sure that beyond his system he has demonstrated no ability to motivate this club. Lack lustre performance that goes un-addressed is a coaching problem IMO.

    As for Smith I am a big fan of his so I would disagree that he is not effective. He was very effective last year in Philly and the assertion that he has lost a step and is ineffective is erroneous in this case. He is slotted in the last pairing with the worst defense partners... Schubert, Bell, etc... He is not tasked with shutting down the top forwards, which is the role he excels at. This relegation has rendered him less effective than we hoped for. Put him with Lee in the second parining and I am sure there would be a different outcome. Put him on a club that competes and he will fit in nicely. His career is far from over. He has been better than Commodore was when he was here and Commodore found 3.5M on the open market (not that the number there was right) I would take Smith over Commodore every day of the week.
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by davetherave on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:48 pm

    Thanks very much MOI. It's a pleasure to discuss hockey with all of you.

    Just to clarify my take on Hartsburg, I will use the following metaphor and anecdote.

    The Senators remind me of a sales team I once managed at a company that was struggling. You had a few 'superstars', some middle of the pack types, pluggers, a few youngsters and some deadwood.

    The 'superstars' weren't performing up to their capability, so I sat down with them and said their best efforts would be needed to turn the company around.

    One of them stepped up. The other one kept doing the same thing over and over again. This eventually caused the first one to slip back into bad habits as well.

    This had a negative effect on the team. Though they started to adopt the new sales program we had prepared for them, one of the stars, who had a following among the group, openly voiced his disdain for the program.

    We fired one of the superstars and promoted the best one of the pluggers; following that, a few of the mid-pack and deadwood types resigned from the company.

    The company got turned around.

    ---

    Now, about Jason Smith. He is a veteran with a distinguished career. However, last year, the Flyers decided he was done and handed the captaincy over the Mike Richards, while letting Jason leave as a UFA. There were very good reasons for that. One of them is that Jason Smith is just too slow to be an effective starting D-man in the NHL.

    Why Bryan Murray signed him on a two year deal for 2.6MM a year continues to elude me. A one year at 1.25MM, maybe.

    Just MHO.


    Last edited by davetherave on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : punctuation)

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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by Guest on Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:44 pm

    davetherave wrote:Thanks very much MOI. It's a pleasure to discuss hockey with all of you.

    Just to clarify my take on Hartsburg, I will use the following metaphor and anecdote.

    The Senators remind me of a sales team I once managed at a company that was struggling. You had a few 'superstars', some middle of the pack types, pluggers, a few youngsters and some deadwood.

    The 'superstars' weren't performing up to their capability, so I sat down with them and said their best efforts would be needed to turn the company around.

    One of them stepped up. The other one kept doing the same thing over and over again. This eventually caused the first one to slip back into bad habits as well.

    This had a negative effect on the team. Though they started to adopt the new sales program we had prepared for them, one of the stars, who had a following among the group, openly voiced his disdain for the program.

    We fired one of the superstars and promoted the best one of the pluggers; following that, a few of the mid-pack and deadwood types resigned from the company.

    The company got turned around.

    ---

    Now, about Jason Smith. He is a veteran with a distinguished career. However, last year, the Flyers decided he was done and handed the captaincy over the Mike Richards, while letting Jason leave as a UFA. There were very good reasons for that. One of them is that Jason Smith is just too slow to be an effective starting D-man in the NHL.

    Why Bryan Murray signed him on a two year deal for 2.6MM a year continues to elude me. A one year at 1.25MM, maybe.

    Just MHO.

    I would say that your sales analogy would suggest you are an advocate of wholsesale changes?

    As for Smitty I think we have to agree to disagree. He does not get beat very often as many may suggest. I watch very closely, he is mostly in position. Also, if you watched his playoff performance last year you would not say washed up. The guy played with two separated shoulders and a Jaroslav Modry who's had a death in the family and was not focused. Despite that he made Sidney Crosby's life miserable, who is one of the top players in the world. That is all I will say. If we were a playoff team and using him appropriately, I think everyone would appreciate him more. Everyone is entitled to their opinion however, this is just mine.

    EDIT: Also if you remember back to the end of last year, Philly was right up against the cap and had to sign superstars. Their management would have loved to have him back, they had to prioritize other needs ahead of him. If they thought he was finished they would have traded him as a UFA prior to the deadline. If they could have signed him for 1.55 M they would have kept him for sure.

    EDIT EDIT: I guess that was not all I had to say about that. Smile
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    Re: I am done with Hartsburg... he is dead to me.

    Post by davetherave on Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:59 pm

    MOI, I am not an advocate of 'wholesale changes' so much as 'targeted change'. To have a winning team, in sports or in business, you have to have everyone buying in to the plan.

    Those who don't buy in, have to move on and/or be moved.

    It's not a pleasant or sentimental view, and BTW I have a number of issues with how businesses treat people, but that's another discussion.

    As for Jason Smith, I certainly did watch his excellent performance in the playoffs last year. But I also saw an aging defenseman giving it his last shot with a body that has been battered over the years. Therefore, I would have never signed him on a 2-year, 5.2 million dollar deal. Just not a wise investment.

    Besides, the team needs to see what Bell, Lee and Picard can do. It's a numbers game.


    Last edited by davetherave on Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)

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