Murray talking to Sundin's agent

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    rooneypoo
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    Re: Murray talking to Sundin's agent

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:25 pm

    jamvan wrote:
    If he doesn't care about money, we can still offer him close to $4 million to play here. Why would we have to trade anything? Send McCammond to the minors to help with the young kids and voila.

    I think we've been over this a few times around here, but you can't just send unwanted guys to the minors. First, the undesired player would have to clear waivers -- which is when other teams can grab him at his current contract. Second, if he did clear them and made it to the minors, you'd have to pay him his full NHL salary to play in the AHL, and I can guarantee you that GMs/owners consider and test out all other options before they do that. Third, if you ever wanted to call that player up again, he'd have to pass through re-entry waivers -- which is when other teams can grab him at half of his current contract, and leave us paying the other half of that contract (and with that amount counting against our cap).

    I'm not sure we could pay Sundin $4 mil as you suggest, although I'd obviously do it in a second if it were up to me. What's amazing about our situation is that, because we can count on pairing down to a 21-man roster, we can indeed assume that we have about $5 mil in cap space at the moment -- and I say that's amazing because I like our line up and we have an excess of players. But we do need to save a minimum of $1.5-2 mil for call ups, injuries, etc., so I'd say we really only have about $3-3.5 mil to play with right now.

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    Re: Murray talking to Sundin's agent

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:04 pm

    Your right about all that Rooney except that if McAmmond goes down to the Minors it means no one wants him at his current salary and would likely clear waivers. If he didn't clear waivers then that means he's totally off the books so, if they went the route of sending him down they'd probably be pretty happy to see him get picked up on the way down. Assuming he does make it down, which is probably the most likely scenario, assuming of course they wanted to go that route, then he would most likely never see another game as an Ottawa Senator unless there was sheer devestation due to injury.

    Also he did say we could pay him CLOSE to 4 M and in my books 3.5M is getting into the close range but that's a matter of opinion. Also is does that 21 man roster include McAmmond? Could we also not find a way to get down to a 20 man roster like they wanted to do the first year of the new CBA?

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    Re: Murray talking to Sundin's agent

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:50 pm

    Cap'n' Clutch wrote:Your right about all that Rooney except that if McAmmond goes down to the Minors it means no one wants him at his current salary and would likely clear waivers. If he didn't clear waivers then that means he's totally off the books so, if they went the route of sending him down they'd probably be pretty happy to see him get picked up on the way down. Assuming he does make it down, which is probably the most likely scenario, assuming of course they wanted to go that route, then he would most likely never see another game as an Ottawa Senator unless there was sheer devestation due to injury.

    Also he did say we could pay him CLOSE to 4 M and in my books 3.5M is getting into the close range but that's a matter of opinion. Also is does that 21 man roster include McAmmond? Could we also not find a way to get down to a 20 man roster like they wanted to do the first year of the new CBA?

    Or instead of sending McAmmond to the minors... we trade him, which is the obvious answer. Jamvan was saying why trade him when you can send him to the minors? I'm saying, why give him away for nothing on waivers / pay him his full salary to play in the AHL -- which is what would happen if we tried to send him to the minors -- when you can get something, anything in return for him via trade? Trading him is the answer that makes the most sense of all if we don't see him playing for us. Sending him to the minors does not make any sense at all.

    My personal ideal 20/21-man roster would not include McAmmond:

    Foligno/Winchester (.85/.55) - Spezza (7) - Heater (7.5)
    Vermette (2.76) - Fisher (4.2) - Alfie (4.414)
    Foligno/Winchester - Kelly (2.125) - Neil (1.1)
    Ruutu (1.3) - Bass (.513) - Donovan (.625)

    Phillips (3.5) - Volchenkov (2.5)
    Kuba (3) - Lee (1.275)
    Smith (2.6) - Picard (.80)

    Schubert (.883) as 21st man, McAmmond traded

    Gerber (3.7) - Auld (1)
    Emery buyout (.479)

    = $52.674 mil, leaving us with $4 mil in space.

    If you want to pair down to 20, then you have to move another player and shift Schubert to the 4th line. Your options would be a) trade Neil, or b) demote Bass to the minors.

    (Winchester and Foligno are possibilities for demotion too, I grant, but Winchester is less likely, I think, because of his 1-way deal, and Foligno is less likely because he is more skilled offensively. Sending Picard down is not an option -- because of his age, because he's more than 3 years removed from the time of signing his first contract, and because he's played more than 60 games, I'm pretty sure he subject to waivers now. Check out pp.66-67 of the CBA, however, to see if my interpretation makes sense to you.)

    In scenario a), you're left with $5.1 mil in space; in scenario b), your left with just over $4.5 mil (assuming Bass or Winchester), or about $4.85 mil in space (if Foligno).

    Trading Neil and McAmmond, then, would theoretically leave us with enough money to sign Sundin for about $3.5 mil at best (and that might be too close for comfort for Murray). But then we'd have a 21-man roster again, and we'd be back to square one in terms of what to do with the extra player and who would it be.... though I confess that would be a problem I'd happily face if Sundin were on our team. Smile

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    Re: Murray talking to Sundin's agent

    Post by Guest on Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:51 pm

    quick note before I go to bed: The NHLPA would not allow Sundin to take such a small amount. Anything less than 6M would be a real slap in the face to the rest of the league.
    Trust me: Its not happening (the money...I'm not discounting the possibility that he might sign here)
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    Re: Murray talking to Sundin's agent

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:09 am

    cash wrote:quick note before I go to bed: The NHLPA would not allow Sundin to take such a small amount. Anything less than 6M would be a real slap in the face to the rest of the league.
    Trust me: Its not happening (the money...I'm not discounting the possibility that he might sign here)

    I agree in principle but...

    Selanne signed for $3 mil last year (and that was not pro-rated: that was the annual amount, which means he only got paid about 1/3 of that), and, given the Ducks' current cap woes, he is widely expected to give a similarly large home-town discount and sign a contract worth about the same amount of money.

    Is Selanne still as impactful a player as Sundin is right now? Hell yes. If the NHLPA can't do anything about Selanne, I'm not sure what they could do to Sundin. They could be as mad as they like, but I don't think they have any say in the matter.
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    Re: Murray talking to Sundin's agent

    Post by wprager on Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:16 am

    cash wrote:quick note before I go to bed: The NHLPA would not allow Sundin to take such a small amount. Anything less than 6M would be a real slap in the face to the rest of the league.
    Trust me: Its not happening (the money...I'm not discounting the possibility that he might sign here)

    The NHLPA can go . A UFA contract can never be used as a comparable so it doesn't affect arbitration decisions. Plus they'd hardly have the balls to come out against a veteran and future HoF guy. Wherever he signs it will be a one-off and will not influence any future contracts aside for similar "special" situations. You think that $20M Vancouver deal would make any difference to anyone other than Mats and the Canuck organization?

    While I don't think Sundin will end up here, I'm starting to seriously think that a couple of forwards may be on the move. Schubert is the most likely for a few reasons:
    1. He was part of the party crowd with Meszaros
    2. He was promised a D role but that looks unlikely
    3. Richardson is getting a tryout as D7
    4. Carkner is trying out as a forward

    As valuable as he is, with his versatility and contract, it really means that we could get a decent return in a trade. Package him up with our two first rounders and a prospect and move into lottery territory? Any chance of that happening?
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    Re: Murray talking to Sundin's agent

    Post by Cronie on Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:06 am

    wprager wrote:
    cash wrote:quick note before I go to bed: The NHLPA would not allow Sundin to take such a small amount. Anything less than 6M would be a real slap in the face to the rest of the league.
    Trust me: Its not happening (the money...I'm not discounting the possibility that he might sign here)

    The NHLPA can go . A UFA contract can never be used as a comparable so it doesn't affect arbitration decisions. Plus they'd hardly have the balls to come out against a veteran and future HoF guy. Wherever he signs it will be a one-off and will not influence any future contracts aside for similar "special" situations. You think that $20M Vancouver deal would make any difference to anyone other than Mats and the Canuck organization?

    While I don't think Sundin will end up here, I'm starting to seriously think that a couple of forwards may be on the move. Schubert is the most likely for a few reasons:
    1. He was part of the party crowd with Meszaros
    2. He was promised a D role but that looks unlikely
    3. Richardson is getting a tryout as D7
    4. Carkner is trying out as a forward

    As valuable as he is, with his versatility and contract, it really means that we could get a decent return in a trade. Package him up with our two first rounders and a prospect and move into lottery territory? Any chance of that happening?

    Well, if anything, I think we've ALL learned not to underestimate Murray and what he plans. I wouldn't throw it past him to have thought about that, and who knows what goes down.

    Fact is, Jam and I have been saying for a while that we both had gut feelings Schubert was going to be moved... While I'd hate to lose such a versatile player, as long as Murray gets an awesome return, then I hesitatingly would oblige such a move.

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