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Malkin possibly on the move?

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76Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 8:42 pm

stempniaksen


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Has more to do with the fact he has never had to be that guy though.

I wouldn't make this argument. But it can honestly be argued that Malkin has been 'that guy' for the Penguins more often than Crosby has.

He had that awesome stretch when Crosby was hurt, and also had the Conn Smyth performance. If that's more than Crosby or not, it's still more than a handful of other guys on your list.

77Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 8:48 pm

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Yeah, I think Malkin is more or less aloud to be given a lot of room at times because of Crosby and last playoff was a perfect example. Malkin never really had a good playoff until last year and teams focuses in on Crosby. Give a guy with Malkin's tallent that much room and he is going to burn you.

He has had 1 great playoff and 3 where he was very ineffective. Tough to argue that.

78Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 8:54 pm

stempniaksen


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In those 3 'ineffective' playoffs he averaged a PPG.

I'm not sure what series you were watching, but it surely wasn't the same as the rest of us.

79Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 8:57 pm

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stempniaksen wrote:In those 3 'ineffective' playoffs he averaged a PPG.

I'm not sure what series you were watching, but it surely wasn't the same as the rest of us.

His rookie year, brutal. This year he wasnt very good despite putting up a PPG, very much like Spezza. The year The Pens went to the cup he was ok, not great, not bad, but ok.

Like Ive always said, gotta look at more then the points because this year he wasnt good at all.

80Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Ev

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N4L wrote:Yeah, I think Malkin is more or less aloud to be given a lot of room at times because of Crosby and last playoff was a perfect example. Malkin never really had a good playoff until last year and teams focuses in on Crosby. Give a guy with Malkin's tallent that much room and he is going to burn you.

He has had 1 great playoff and 3 where he was very ineffective. Tough to argue that.

The first one was his rookie year (it was like 25 more games than he ever played in his career before that), and the year they first got to the Finals he was just completely burnt out, but was doing well until a Mike Richards hit (or some other Flyer, I can't remember) injured him in the Conference Finals. Just shedding some light on the argument.

81Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:11 pm

stempniaksen

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No one was good that first year. Ottawa destroyed that lineup top to bottom. And he was very good when the went to the finals (up until the Finals that is).

This year he was streaky to say the least, but so was that entire team. It's tough to fault one guy and not another in that situation.

Agree to disagree though I suppose.

82Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:12 pm

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stempniaksen wrote:
Big Ev wrote:But Malkin isn't a soft player, he takes hits and dishes them out from time to time. He's also a player who elevates his game when he takes a big hit from an opposing player. He'll go into the dirty areas.

Chara's a great defencman and all, but he is not a winner.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner (and as usual it's not Chara).

N4L, I'd like to see you defend Chara for the exact same reasons you vilify Spezza.

Listen, chara is a spectacular defenceman. But when taking into account their ages along with how many times they've won on the biggest stage, and the way they performed once they reach that stage I take Malkin every time.

The guy is a top 3 Russian player, and is a top 5 player in the world no questions asked. His regular season dominance and strong playoffs prove that.

I'll give this a shot. N4L's biggest issue with Spezza is the fact that he believed that Spezza cannot or will not ever lead the Sens as a $7 million player. I'm inclined to agree since we haven't seen much of anything sustained over any reasonable amount of time that shows he could be that guy.

Chara on the other hand IS that guy for the Bruins. He's the captain and undisputed leader of that team.

Also, comparing a D-man to a forward just isn't fair. Chara contributes in ways Spezza never, ever could, all while playing in every situation, for more minutes a night. Sure, he'll never out point Spezza, but he brings intangibles that Spezza (not just him, but a lot of players) couldn't even dream about.

I fail to see this Chara isn't a winner argument. He didn't have any success with the Sens (play-off wise), but neither did Alfie then if you want to call a spade, a spade. By this argument, Raymond Bourque was a career loser until he broke through and won the Cup in his last NHL game? Nonsense.

83Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:12 pm

Ev

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N4L wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:In those 3 'ineffective' playoffs he averaged a PPG.

I'm not sure what series you were watching, but it surely wasn't the same as the rest of us.

His rookie year, brutal. This year he wasnt very good despite putting up a PPG, very much like Spezza. The year The Pens went to the cup he was ok, not great, not bad, but ok.

Like Ive always said, gotta look at more then the points because this year he wasnt good at all.

But that's the difference with him and Spezza. In a Malkin off-year he still is over a PPH (he was on pace for 94 points this year), and Spezza during an off-year gets like 70.

84Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:14 pm

Ev

Ev
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hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:
Big Ev wrote:But Malkin isn't a soft player, he takes hits and dishes them out from time to time. He's also a player who elevates his game when he takes a big hit from an opposing player. He'll go into the dirty areas.

Chara's a great defencman and all, but he is not a winner.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner (and as usual it's not Chara).

N4L, I'd like to see you defend Chara for the exact same reasons you vilify Spezza.

Listen, chara is a spectacular defenceman. But when taking into account their ages along with how many times they've won on the biggest stage, and the way they performed once they reach that stage I take Malkin every time.

The guy is a top 3 Russian player, and is a top 5 player in the world no questions asked. His regular season dominance and strong playoffs prove that.

I'll give this a shot. N4L's biggest issue with Spezza is the fact that he believed that Spezza cannot or will not ever lead the Sens as a $7 million player. I'm inclined to agree since we haven't seen much of anything sustained over any reasonable amount of time that shows he could be that guy.

Chara on the other hand IS that guy for the Bruins. He's the captain and undisputed leader of that team.

Also, comparing a D-man to a forward just isn't fair. Chara contributes in ways Spezza never, ever could, all while playing in every situation, for more minutes a night. Sure, he'll never out point Spezza, but he brings intangibles that Spezza (not just him, but a lot of players) couldn't even dream about.

I fail to see this Chara isn't a winner argument. He didn't have any success with the Sens (play-off wise), but neither did Alfie then if you want to call a spade, a spade. By this argument, Raymond Bourque was a career loser until he broke through and won the Cup in his last NHL game? Nonsense.

I don't think Alfie is as good a leader as everyone else thinks, same goes for Chara.

85Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:17 pm

Ev

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Who gave me a - for saying that I'd rather have Malkin over Datsyuk because he's 8 years younger? That's just weak.

86Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:19 pm

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Just read Hemlock, that's basically what I think about Spezzavs Chara.

Anyways, when you say player you bring into account every player in The NHL. I dont think Malkin is that.

87Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:27 pm

stempniaksen

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hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:
Big Ev wrote:But Malkin isn't a soft player, he takes hits and dishes them out from time to time. He's also a player who elevates his game when he takes a big hit from an opposing player. He'll go into the dirty areas.

Chara's a great defencman and all, but he is not a winner.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner (and as usual it's not Chara).

N4L, I'd like to see you defend Chara for the exact same reasons you vilify Spezza.

Listen, chara is a spectacular defenceman. But when taking into account their ages along with how many times they've won on the biggest stage, and the way they performed once they reach that stage I take Malkin every time.

The guy is a top 3 Russian player, and is a top 5 player in the world no questions asked. His regular season dominance and strong playoffs prove that.

I'll give this a shot. N4L's biggest issue with Spezza is the fact that he believed that Spezza cannot or will not ever lead the Sens as a $7 million player. I'm inclined to agree since we haven't seen much of anything sustained over any reasonable amount of time that shows he could be that guy.

Chara on the other hand IS that guy for the Bruins. He's the captain and undisputed leader of that team.

Also, comparing a D-man to a forward just isn't fair. Chara contributes in ways Spezza never, ever could, all while playing in every situation, for more minutes a night. Sure, he'll never out point Spezza, but he brings intangibles that Spezza (not just him, but a lot of players) couldn't even dream about.

I fail to see this Chara isn't a winner argument. He didn't have any success with the Sens (play-off wise), but neither did Alfie then if you want to call a spade, a spade. By this argument, Raymond Bourque was a career loser until he broke through and won the Cup in his last NHL game? Nonsense.

Alfie led his team to the SCF for the first time on modern history. I fail to see any time that Chara has ever led his team anywhere other than a playoff spot.

Most of the Bruins/Senators playoff sucess has come in spite of Chara and not because of it.

And my point was never that Spezza is a better player (I would be foolish to argue that). My point was that N4L's biggest argument against Spezza for his entire career has been the fact that he has never won anything, and that it was hypocritical to not use the very same arguments against Chara.

88Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:29 pm

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Big Ev wrote:
hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:
Big Ev wrote:But Malkin isn't a soft player, he takes hits and dishes them out from time to time. He's also a player who elevates his game when he takes a big hit from an opposing player. He'll go into the dirty areas.

Chara's a great defencman and all, but he is not a winner.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner (and as usual it's not Chara).

N4L, I'd like to see you defend Chara for the exact same reasons you vilify Spezza.

Listen, chara is a spectacular defenceman. But when taking into account their ages along with how many times they've won on the biggest stage, and the way they performed once they reach that stage I take Malkin every time.

The guy is a top 3 Russian player, and is a top 5 player in the world no questions asked. His regular season dominance and strong playoffs prove that.

I'll give this a shot. N4L's biggest issue with Spezza is the fact that he believed that Spezza cannot or will not ever lead the Sens as a $7 million player. I'm inclined to agree since we haven't seen much of anything sustained over any reasonable amount of time that shows he could be that guy.

Chara on the other hand IS that guy for the Bruins. He's the captain and undisputed leader of that team.

Also, comparing a D-man to a forward just isn't fair. Chara contributes in ways Spezza never, ever could, all while playing in every situation, for more minutes a night. Sure, he'll never out point Spezza, but he brings intangibles that Spezza (not just him, but a lot of players) couldn't even dream about.

I fail to see this Chara isn't a winner argument. He didn't have any success with the Sens (play-off wise), but neither did Alfie then if you want to call a spade, a spade. By this argument, Raymond Bourque was a career loser until he broke through and won the Cup in his last NHL game? Nonsense.

I don't think Alfie is as good a leader as everyone else thinks, same goes for Chara.

I'd love to hear why not. Particularly, in the case of Alfredsson, who brings it more than 99% of the league, often while playing hurt. Please....elaborate. It's tough to take you seriously, when you make a statement like this with not so much as a word to qualify it.

89Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:36 pm

Ev

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Just because he's been the captain for 13 years or whatever it is, and all he has to show for it is 1 SCF. He plays hurt, fine, but that doesn't make him an awesome leader. I just don't get how he has been the longest serving captain in the NHL without having won it all during that span. He's a leader, him and Chara are both good leaders. But guys like Toews, Richards, and Crosby are already better captains than Alfredsson and they are much younger. That's all.

By the way, I like Alfredsson. Don't take that as me ripping Alfredsson.

90Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:36 pm

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stempniaksen wrote:
hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:
Big Ev wrote:But Malkin isn't a soft player, he takes hits and dishes them out from time to time. He's also a player who elevates his game when he takes a big hit from an opposing player. He'll go into the dirty areas.

Chara's a great defencman and all, but he is not a winner.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner (and as usual it's not Chara).

N4L, I'd like to see you defend Chara for the exact same reasons you vilify Spezza.

Listen, chara is a spectacular defenceman. But when taking into account their ages along with how many times they've won on the biggest stage, and the way they performed once they reach that stage I take Malkin every time.

The guy is a top 3 Russian player, and is a top 5 player in the world no questions asked. His regular season dominance and strong playoffs prove that.

I'll give this a shot. N4L's biggest issue with Spezza is the fact that he believed that Spezza cannot or will not ever lead the Sens as a $7 million player. I'm inclined to agree since we haven't seen much of anything sustained over any reasonable amount of time that shows he could be that guy.

Chara on the other hand IS that guy for the Bruins. He's the captain and undisputed leader of that team.

Also, comparing a D-man to a forward just isn't fair. Chara contributes in ways Spezza never, ever could, all while playing in every situation, for more minutes a night. Sure, he'll never out point Spezza, but he brings intangibles that Spezza (not just him, but a lot of players) couldn't even dream about.

I fail to see this Chara isn't a winner argument. He didn't have any success with the Sens (play-off wise), but neither did Alfie then if you want to call a spade, a spade. By this argument, Raymond Bourque was a career loser until he broke through and won the Cup in his last NHL game? Nonsense.

Alfie led his team to the SCF for the first time on modern history. I fail to see any time that Chara has ever led his team anywhere other than a playoff spot.

Most of the Bruins/Senators playoff sucess has come in spite of Chara and not because of it.

And my point was never that Spezza is a better player (I would be foolish to argue that). My point was that N4L's biggest argument against Spezza for his entire career has been the fact that he has never won anything, and that it was hypocritical to not use the very same arguments against Chara.

I'd like to know what playoff success we've had in spite of Chara. If you think that N4L's biggest argument against Spezza is the fact that he hasn't won anything, you haven't been around long enough. His arguments pre-date you joining this site (in fact, this very site's existence), and normally have centred around the fact that Spezza isn't the guy to lead this team, regardless of what his salary was at the time. It was just more tolerable when he was a $4 million player.

Your first point about Alfie would hold a lot more weight if the Senators had actually won the Cup, instead of getting blasted in the Finals. To say that Alfie is a leader because of that and Chara isn't just doesn't hold water, since neither of them have technically won anything.

91Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:41 pm

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stempniaksen wrote:
hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:
Big Ev wrote:But Malkin isn't a soft player, he takes hits and dishes them out from time to time. He's also a player who elevates his game when he takes a big hit from an opposing player. He'll go into the dirty areas.

Chara's a great defencman and all, but he is not a winner.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner (and as usual it's not Chara).

N4L, I'd like to see you defend Chara for the exact same reasons you vilify Spezza.

Listen, chara is a spectacular defenceman. But when taking into account their ages along with how many times they've won on the biggest stage, and the way they performed once they reach that stage I take Malkin every time.

The guy is a top 3 Russian player, and is a top 5 player in the world no questions asked. His regular season dominance and strong playoffs prove that.

I'll give this a shot. N4L's biggest issue with Spezza is the fact that he believed that Spezza cannot or will not ever lead the Sens as a $7 million player. I'm inclined to agree since we haven't seen much of anything sustained over any reasonable amount of time that shows he could be that guy.

Chara on the other hand IS that guy for the Bruins. He's the captain and undisputed leader of that team.

Also, comparing a D-man to a forward just isn't fair. Chara contributes in ways Spezza never, ever could, all while playing in every situation, for more minutes a night. Sure, he'll never out point Spezza, but he brings intangibles that Spezza (not just him, but a lot of players) couldn't even dream about.

I fail to see this Chara isn't a winner argument. He didn't have any success with the Sens (play-off wise), but neither did Alfie then if you want to call a spade, a spade. By this argument, Raymond Bourque was a career loser until he broke through and won the Cup in his last NHL game? Nonsense.

Alfie led his team to the SCF for the first time on modern history. I fail to see any time that Chara has ever led his team anywhere other than a playoff spot.

Most of the Bruins/Senators playoff sucess has come in spite of Chara and not because of it.

And my point was never that Spezza is a better player (I would be foolish to argue that). My point was that N4L's biggest argument against Spezza for his entire career has been the fact that he has never won anything, and that it was hypocritical to not use the very same arguments against Chara.

Yes and no. Chara is a leader, works hard, and shows he wants to win. Spezza isnt a lot of that and really hasnt won anything being on a ton of teams that have been the favaorites and expected to win. Be it in The OHL, International, or in The AHL or NHL.

92Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:44 pm

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I dont want to turn this into another Spezza convo, it's been beaten to death.

93Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 6 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:44 pm

Ev

Ev
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N4L wrote:I dont want to turn this into another Spezza convo, it's been beaten to death.

AGREED

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