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Malkin possibly on the move?

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91Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:41 pm

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stempniaksen wrote:
hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:
Big Ev wrote:But Malkin isn't a soft player, he takes hits and dishes them out from time to time. He's also a player who elevates his game when he takes a big hit from an opposing player. He'll go into the dirty areas.

Chara's a great defencman and all, but he is not a winner.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner (and as usual it's not Chara).

N4L, I'd like to see you defend Chara for the exact same reasons you vilify Spezza.

Listen, chara is a spectacular defenceman. But when taking into account their ages along with how many times they've won on the biggest stage, and the way they performed once they reach that stage I take Malkin every time.

The guy is a top 3 Russian player, and is a top 5 player in the world no questions asked. His regular season dominance and strong playoffs prove that.

I'll give this a shot. N4L's biggest issue with Spezza is the fact that he believed that Spezza cannot or will not ever lead the Sens as a $7 million player. I'm inclined to agree since we haven't seen much of anything sustained over any reasonable amount of time that shows he could be that guy.

Chara on the other hand IS that guy for the Bruins. He's the captain and undisputed leader of that team.

Also, comparing a D-man to a forward just isn't fair. Chara contributes in ways Spezza never, ever could, all while playing in every situation, for more minutes a night. Sure, he'll never out point Spezza, but he brings intangibles that Spezza (not just him, but a lot of players) couldn't even dream about.

I fail to see this Chara isn't a winner argument. He didn't have any success with the Sens (play-off wise), but neither did Alfie then if you want to call a spade, a spade. By this argument, Raymond Bourque was a career loser until he broke through and won the Cup in his last NHL game? Nonsense.

Alfie led his team to the SCF for the first time on modern history. I fail to see any time that Chara has ever led his team anywhere other than a playoff spot.

Most of the Bruins/Senators playoff sucess has come in spite of Chara and not because of it.

And my point was never that Spezza is a better player (I would be foolish to argue that). My point was that N4L's biggest argument against Spezza for his entire career has been the fact that he has never won anything, and that it was hypocritical to not use the very same arguments against Chara.

Yes and no. Chara is a leader, works hard, and shows he wants to win. Spezza isnt a lot of that and really hasnt won anything being on a ton of teams that have been the favaorites and expected to win. Be it in The OHL, International, or in The AHL or NHL.

92Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:44 pm

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I dont want to turn this into another Spezza convo, it's been beaten to death.

93Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:44 pm

Ev


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N4L wrote:I dont want to turn this into another Spezza convo, it's been beaten to death.

AGREED

94Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:45 pm

stempniaksen

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If I honestly have to point out the differences between Chara and Alfie and why Alfie is certainly a better leader than I'm not sure you know the game of hockey as well as I thought you did.

And about N4L's reasons for hating Spezza. I've probably debated him more than anyone in that regard over the last couple months so I'm sure I've had time to catch up. (I'm pointing out that when asked about why he doesn't think he's the guy to lead us he points at past history and Spezza's lack of winning any championships, ect).

Regardless though, everyone is entitled to their opinions and if the wanna take Chara over Alfie/Malkin that is there right.

95Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:47 pm

stempniaksen

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N4L wrote:Yes and no. Chara is a leader, works hard, and shows he wants to win. Spezza isnt a lot of that and really hasnt won anything being on a ton of teams that have been the favaorites and expected to win. Be it in The OHL, International, or in The AHL or NHL.

That's the thing though, they both haven't won anything so how can you defend one and vilify the other?

That's what irks me from this more than any of the other points people have brought up.

96Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:48 pm

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Big Ev wrote:Just because he's been the captain for 13 years or whatever it is, and all he has to show for it is 1 SCF. He plays hurt, fine, but that doesn't make him an awesome leader. I just don't get how he has been the longest serving captain in the NHL without having won it all during that span. He's a leader, him and Chara are both good leaders. But guys like Toews, Richards, and Crosby are already better captains than Alfredsson and they are much younger. That's all.

By the way, I like Alfredsson. Don't take that as me ripping Alfredsson.

Ok so, in order to be a good leader you have to win? Gotcha. Crosby is a better captain than Daniel Alfredsson? Seriously? For Real?

Credibility -1

97Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:48 pm

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Because Chara actually leads, sets a solid example on and off the ice, and is always working hard, ALWAYS. You never question Chara, plus he is arguably the best at his position, Spezza isnt close.

98Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:52 pm

stempniaksen

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Does he really lead and set an example? Do his teammates actually look to him when their backs are up against the wall? There's no way of knowing for sure, but I'm led to think not always.

And Chara is talented, but he's not even top 5 in his position. At least we can prove he is no longer top 3 with the Norris candidates.

99Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:53 pm

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stempniaksen wrote:Does he really lead and set an example? Do his teammates actually look to him when their backs are up against the wall? There's no way of knowing for sure, but I'm led to think not always.

And Chara is talented, but he's not even top 5 in his position. At least we can prove he is no longer top 3 with the Norris candidates.

Ya well neither is Mike Green.

100Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 9:54 pm

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stempniaksen wrote:If I honestly have to point out the differences between Chara and Alfie and why Alfie is certainly a better leader than I'm not sure you know the game of hockey as well as I thought you did.

And about N4L's reasons for hating Spezza. I've probably debated him more than anyone in that regard over the last couple months so I'm sure I've had time to catch up. (I'm pointing out that when asked about why he doesn't think he's the guy to lead us he points at past history and Spezza's lack of winning any championships, ect).

Regardless though, everyone is entitled to their opinions and if the wanna take Chara over Alfie/Malkin that is there right.

Way to answer the question deflect! A pot shot at my hockey knowledge too no less. You made a blanket statement, and didn't qualify it, then come back with some Dung that you shouldn't have to defend your comments? Laughable.

Other than the fact that Alfredsson has taken his team to the SCF and Chara hasn't what differences are there that are so vast that I apparently am lacking hockey knowledge to not be seeing. Please, enlighten me.

101Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 10:00 pm

Ev

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hemlock wrote:
Big Ev wrote:Just because he's been the captain for 13 years or whatever it is, and all he has to show for it is 1 SCF. He plays hurt, fine, but that doesn't make him an awesome leader. I just don't get how he has been the longest serving captain in the NHL without having won it all during that span. He's a leader, him and Chara are both good leaders. But guys like Toews, Richards, and Crosby are already better captains than Alfredsson and they are much younger. That's all.

By the way, I like Alfredsson. Don't take that as me ripping Alfredsson.

Ok so, in order to be a good leader you have to win? Gotcha. Crosby is a better captain than Daniel Alfredsson? Seriously? For Real?

Credibility -1

No, but winning a Cup in your 13 years of captaincy could really help prove that he is indeed a great leader. I'd say that 80% of teams would have traded Alfie by now.

With the awful group of wingers and no-name defense, leading his team to a Cup and a SCF, I think one could argue that Crosby is already a better leader than Alfie.

Credibility? This is an internet forum where people have their own opinions, for crying out loud. How does that make me any less "credible" than you are? You could argue that nobody is credible, we are just ordinary people talking hockey.

102Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 10:04 pm

stempniaksen

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hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:If I honestly have to point out the differences between Chara and Alfie and why Alfie is certainly a better leader than I'm not sure you know the game of hockey as well as I thought you did.

And about N4L's reasons for hating Spezza. I've probably debated him more than anyone in that regard over the last couple months so I'm sure I've had time to catch up. (I'm pointing out that when asked about why he doesn't think he's the guy to lead us he points at past history and Spezza's lack of winning any championships, ect).

Regardless though, everyone is entitled to their opinions and if the wanna take Chara over Alfie/Malkin that is there right.

Way to answer the question deflect! A pot shot at my hockey knowledge too no less. You made a blanket statement, and didn't qualify it, then come back with some Dung that you shouldn't have to defend your comments? Laughable.

Other than the fact that Alfredsson has taken his team to the SCF and Chara hasn't what differences are there that are so vast that I apparently am lacking hockey knowledge to not be seeing. Please, enlighten me.

No pot shot intended, sorry if you took it that way.

Obviously people view Chara much differently than I do, but being the 'outsider' when it comes to opinions on hockey players is nothing new to me.

Let's just chalk this one down to a difference of opinion then.

103Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 10:05 pm

Ev

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stempniaksen wrote:
hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:If I honestly have to point out the differences between Chara and Alfie and why Alfie is certainly a better leader than I'm not sure you know the game of hockey as well as I thought you did.

And about N4L's reasons for hating Spezza. I've probably debated him more than anyone in that regard over the last couple months so I'm sure I've had time to catch up. (I'm pointing out that when asked about why he doesn't think he's the guy to lead us he points at past history and Spezza's lack of winning any championships, ect).

Regardless though, everyone is entitled to their opinions and if the wanna take Chara over Alfie/Malkin that is there right.

Way to answer the question deflect! A pot shot at my hockey knowledge too no less. You made a blanket statement, and didn't qualify it, then come back with some Dung that you shouldn't have to defend your comments? Laughable.

Other than the fact that Alfredsson has taken his team to the SCF and Chara hasn't what differences are there that are so vast that I apparently am lacking hockey knowledge to not be seeing. Please, enlighten me.

No pot shot intended, sorry if you took it that way.

Obviously people view Chara much differently than I do, but being the 'outsider' when it comes to opinions on hockey players is nothing new to me.

Let's just chalk this one down to a difference of opinion then.

I agree with you dude. I have a Slovak friend and we rip him all the time because his country and his country's players never win anything Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 270956

104Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 10:34 pm

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Big Ev wrote:
hemlock wrote:
Big Ev wrote:Just because he's been the captain for 13 years or whatever it is, and all he has to show for it is 1 SCF. He plays hurt, fine, but that doesn't make him an awesome leader. I just don't get how he has been the longest serving captain in the NHL without having won it all during that span. He's a leader, him and Chara are both good leaders. But guys like Toews, Richards, and Crosby are already better captains than Alfredsson and they are much younger. That's all.

By the way, I like Alfredsson. Don't take that as me ripping Alfredsson.

Ok so, in order to be a good leader you have to win? Gotcha. Crosby is a better captain than Daniel Alfredsson? Seriously? For Real?

Credibility -1

No, but winning a Cup in your 13 years of captaincy could really help prove that he is indeed a great leader. I'd say that 80% of teams would have traded Alfie by now.

With the awful group of wingers and no-name defense, leading his team to a Cup and a SCF, I think one could argue that Crosby is already a better leader than Alfie.

Credibility? This is an internet forum where people have their own opinions, for crying out loud. How does that make me any less "credible" than you are? You could argue that nobody is credible, we are just ordinary people talking hockey.

Sure winning may help "prove" that he's a leader, but it's certainly not a pre-requisite, like you are seeming to suggest. I think you are putting way too much stock into winning. Cam Neely never won a cup did he? Would you question his leadership? How about Jarome Iginla? I could go on....

Credibility, yes. When you make statements like the one you made about Crosby being a better leader, then don't bother to qualify it, then yes, your credibility takes a hit. Crosby had a no-name defense? How about Gonchar and Orpik? They are no-name? Also, you don't need wingers as badly when you boast the top 3 centres the Penguins have.

Sure, I could argue that anyone on the internet has no credibility, but I choose to limit that to people who make questionable statements without any sort of reasoning or explanation.

105Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 10:38 pm

Ev

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Fine whatever, Alfie is God, let's move on....

106Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 10:39 pm

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stempniaksen wrote:
hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:If I honestly have to point out the differences between Chara and Alfie and why Alfie is certainly a better leader than I'm not sure you know the game of hockey as well as I thought you did.

And about N4L's reasons for hating Spezza. I've probably debated him more than anyone in that regard over the last couple months so I'm sure I've had time to catch up. (I'm pointing out that when asked about why he doesn't think he's the guy to lead us he points at past history and Spezza's lack of winning any championships, ect).

Regardless though, everyone is entitled to their opinions and if the wanna take Chara over Alfie/Malkin that is there right.

Way to answer the question deflect! A pot shot at my hockey knowledge too no less. You made a blanket statement, and didn't qualify it, then come back with some Dung that you shouldn't have to defend your comments? Laughable.

Other than the fact that Alfredsson has taken his team to the SCF and Chara hasn't what differences are there that are so vast that I apparently am lacking hockey knowledge to not be seeing. Please, enlighten me.

No pot shot intended, sorry if you took it that way.

Obviously people view Chara much differently than I do, but being the 'outsider' when it comes to opinions on hockey players is nothing new to me.

Let's just chalk this one down to a difference of opinion then.

Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree. I don't know what you're seeing in Chara (or not seeing), that causes you to hold that opinion. He's the heart and soul of that team. He fights, hits, blocks shots, stands up for teammates (how many times did we see that with the Sens?), and does whatever is asked of him (stand in front of the net on the PP). I've never heard him complain, or talk badly of a coach or teammate. Guys play bigger when he's on the team, that's a fact, proven by his days with the Senators. Not many guys have that type of effect.

107Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 10:45 pm

Cap'n Clutch

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N4L wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:
hemlock wrote:
stempniaksen wrote:
Big Ev wrote:But Malkin isn't a soft player, he takes hits and dishes them out from time to time. He's also a player who elevates his game when he takes a big hit from an opposing player. He'll go into the dirty areas.

Chara's a great defencman and all, but he is not a winner.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner (and as usual it's not Chara).

N4L, I'd like to see you defend Chara for the exact same reasons you vilify Spezza.

Listen, chara is a spectacular defenceman. But when taking into account their ages along with how many times they've won on the biggest stage, and the way they performed once they reach that stage I take Malkin every time.

The guy is a top 3 Russian player, and is a top 5 player in the world no questions asked. His regular season dominance and strong playoffs prove that.

I'll give this a shot. N4L's biggest issue with Spezza is the fact that he believed that Spezza cannot or will not ever lead the Sens as a $7 million player. I'm inclined to agree since we haven't seen much of anything sustained over any reasonable amount of time that shows he could be that guy.

Chara on the other hand IS that guy for the Bruins. He's the captain and undisputed leader of that team.

Also, comparing a D-man to a forward just isn't fair. Chara contributes in ways Spezza never, ever could, all while playing in every situation, for more minutes a night. Sure, he'll never out point Spezza, but he brings intangibles that Spezza (not just him, but a lot of players) couldn't even dream about.

I fail to see this Chara isn't a winner argument. He didn't have any success with the Sens (play-off wise), but neither did Alfie then if you want to call a spade, a spade. By this argument, Raymond Bourque was a career loser until he broke through and won the Cup in his last NHL game? Nonsense.

Alfie led his team to the SCF for the first time on modern history. I fail to see any time that Chara has ever led his team anywhere other than a playoff spot.

Most of the Bruins/Senators playoff sucess has come in spite of Chara and not because of it.

And my point was never that Spezza is a better player (I would be foolish to argue that). My point was that N4L's biggest argument against Spezza for his entire career has been the fact that he has never won anything, and that it was hypocritical to not use the very same arguments against Chara.

Yes and no. Chara is a leader, works hard, and shows he wants to win. Spezza isnt a lot of that and really hasnt won anything being on a ton of teams that have been the favaorites and expected to win. Be it in The OHL, International, or in The AHL or NHL.

Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 62136 I can't help but find that funny after he captained his team to the biggest choke job in the last 35 years.


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108Malkin possibly on the move? - Page 7 Empty Re: Malkin possibly on the move? on Thu May 20, 2010 10:49 pm

stempniaksen

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That's part of what I'm trying to say too. Oh well, falling on deaf ears.

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