The State of discussions at GMHockey

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    shabbs
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by shabbs on Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:38 am

    wprager wrote:Ah, I've (until now) stayed out of that thread. Is that where lies the secret of the recent disappearances?
    Yes.

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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by wprager on Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:42 am

    Oh, my. So that's what it was all about. Oh, well, we still don't have Neely's reason. I guess we'll never find out Facepalm

    Just like we'll never really find out if Spezza was injured, or what he *really* said, or why Chara left, etc.

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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by shabbs on Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:04 am

    Neely is Neely... it's just the way it is...

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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by Guest on Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:30 am

    shabbs wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Big Ev wrote:
    cash wrote:
    Big Ev wrote:All Gohan did was praise Neely at every given opportunity anyway ( was gonna say something different but that would be a little too rude ).

    Actually, I just spent so much time praising him and, I suppose, reassuring him, because dipsh*ts like yourself couldn't get passed his sometimes abrasive style and see how logical his opinions were. I will say unequivocally that I value and appreciate his opinion far more than yours. I'll chalk it up to youth, assuming your stated age is accurate.

    ...you have much to learn, young *unggh* padawan (where's the yoda emoticon when you need one )

    Oh hey, I thought this site was Dung?

    Weak.

    When did Gohan say this site was "Dung"?
    http://www.gmhockey.com/random-thoughts-non-hockey-talk-f5/nba-fa-market-news-stories-and-signings-t4733-80.htm#189787

    Now known as "The Rant".

    Hilarious.. PKC's post wasn't even bad, if seen a Dung load worse on other boards.. and I'd like to say that this place, IMO, has the best conversations.. Minus the BM vs. BB conversation.. N4L is a baby.. plain and simple. I always agreed/enjoyed his comment but common if you think every post is going to be complete genius then you have to get a clue.. he left this site over a basketball post.. ha!
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by Riprock on Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:42 am

    Cash, come one guy you're calling people dipsh*its because they took offense to Neely's total lack of respect in his postings, that is completely unnecessary. Nobody needs to resort to name calling, insults, or just plain rudeness to make a point.

    I think if people here cared, they might take some offense to having others say Neely was the most knowledgeable and respected poster here. Coming off as a disrespectful, arrogant and rude person is not anyway to accomplish that. And personal attacks are just unnecessary. For whatever insightful comments he did have he ruined that with the other things. And the hypocrisy of his "keeping people in check when they were way off" is also hypocritical when you accuse players of libelous and slanderous activities with no other proof than taking his word for it because he has been there, or that one is an idiot if they can't see the drug problems in the Sens organization.

    And for the few members this site has lost recently, they have lost much more potential members because people were turned off by some of the users here before they signed up.
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by rooneypoo on Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:29 pm

    wprager wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    cash wrote:
    Michallica wrote:didn't gohan say 'he expected better from neely' when N4L quit? and now he's gone too.

    whatever. If ppl feel they're too good for a web forum then what can you do?

    Yeah I thought about that...and it really had little to do with the interaction today...I'm just tired of being the voice of reason (not to say there aren't many on this site...I just have no interest in being one of them anymore...)

    Oh, you mean policing other people's Dung is no fun? Huh. Why did N4L leave again? Oh yeah...

    Do we actually know why N4L left?
    It certainly appeared to be a bit of an over-reaction. N4L was never attacked or ambushed without having struck first. We can call it "abrasive style" all we want, but the reality is if this was a workplace he would have been let go long ago. I'm sure he does not act this way at work -- no matter how wrong his co-workers (or boss) may be in a particular situation. Why should it be any different on a message board?

    A sewage backup. That is: an overflow of weak hockey analysis from weak posters. N4L hates stupid, and feels personally obligated to stamp it out. It's an exhausting crusade that he gets sick of from time to time, I would imagine.

    Look, some opinions and analysis are better reasoned, more logical, and better supported than others. That's a fact of life that the politically-correct, 'we're all equal,' 'there are no losers' generation tries to stamp out of existence, but it's a fact nonetheless. When I want to hear about the youngsters, I want to hear from ASQ. When I
    want to chat cap, I want to hear from RobbyJ. When I want analysis of
    team dynamics and player psychology, I want to hear from N4L. It really is that simple. When the best opinions get buried underneath a landslide of crap and those posters have to fight and fight to make their point, well, the quality of the discussion droops and the best ideas don't get the consideration they deserve. Some people have earned the right to be more trusted, more vocal, and more authoritative than others, and N4L was one of those guys.

    From what I can gather, N4L valued this place because he thought it was a collection of the best of the best. When he sees that standard droop -- which, for him, is what happens when we're forced to value and respect opinions that have not proved valuable or earned our respect -- he despairs and leaves. He perhaps expects too much and is too much affected by stupid posts, but when he leaves, the point he is trying to make is that this site's high standard has been compromised.
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by Riprock on Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:36 pm

    Problem is with that attitude, it makes everyone else seem worthless. If we weren't mentioned, we have no valued opinion on this forum, so therefor we should expect to be told so if we post something that is disagreed with? Not only disagreed with but put down, have insults hurled our way? And if we cannot take it and leave, then we lack self-esteem? At that rate, this board would consist of a handful of members.

    Everyone here has an opinion and should be allowed to express it, without being attacked or insulted. Disagree or not, there's no need for that kind of behaviour.
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by rooneypoo on Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:41 pm

    On a related note:

    I've lost 10 rep points in less than a week, and about 27 over the last 3 or 4 months -- another sign of the times. When have I ever insulted anyone personally again, which is the one thing that's supposed to earn you a minus?

    Ridiculous. Someone is actually going back to my old posts and adding minuses at every chance. This site is chasing away its best regulars, and that's precisely what N4L is saying.

    I await the flood of more minuses for pointing out the completely obvious.
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by Riprock on Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:47 pm

    FWIW I am not the one that is doing it. It also takes 1600 seconds between being able to do it for one person, and you are only allowed so many in one day.
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by shabbs on Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:56 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:A sewage backup. That is: an overflow of weak hockey analysis from weak posters. N4L hates stupid, and feels personally obligated to stamp it out. It's an exhausting crusade that he gets sick of from time to time, I would imagine.

    Look, some opinions and analysis are better reasoned, more logical, and better supported than others. That's a fact of life that the politically-correct, 'we're all equal,' 'there are no losers' generation tries to stamp out of existence, but it's a fact nonetheless. When I want to hear about the youngsters, I want to hear from ASQ. When I
    want to chat cap, I want to hear from RobbyJ. When I want analysis of
    team dynamics and player psychology, I want to hear from N4L. It really is that simple. When the best opinions get buried underneath a landslide of crap and those posters have to fight and fight to make their point, well, the quality of the discussion droops and the best ideas don't get the consideration they deserve. Some people have earned the right to be more trusted, more vocal, and more authoritative than others, and N4L was one of those guys.

    From what I can gather, N4L valued this place because he thought it was a collection of the best of the best. When he sees that standard droop -- which, for him, is what happens when we're forced to value and respect opinions that have not proved valuable or earned our respect -- he despairs and leaves. He perhaps expects too much and is too much affected by stupid posts, but when he leaves, the point he is trying to make is that this site's high standard has been compromised.
    The problem with this is that it fosters an elitist closed-minded attitude where the voice of only a few are heard and the rest are expected to "fall in line". I don't think that's the vision that was set out when this board was created. If someone wants to setup a "best of the best and only the best" then they should create their own private, closed by-invite-only site.

    I don't mind people getting called out for stuff they say, hell, they should be called out if it's outlandish. And people should back up what they say with reasonable fact. The biggest issue I have is the lack of common decency some people have when they go on the attack and/or defense. But, that's what happens on these boards, and the more people that sign up, the greater the chance we'll have these types of situations.

    My $0.02.
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by rooneypoo on Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:58 pm

    Dash wrote:Problem is with that attitude, it makes everyone else seem worthless. If we weren't mentioned, we have no valued opinion on this forum, so therefor we should expect to be told so if we post something that is disagreed with? Not only disagreed with but put down, have insults hurled our way? And if we cannot take it and leave, then we lack self-esteem? At that rate, this board would consist of a handful of members.

    Everyone here has an opinion and should be allowed to express it, without being attacked or insulted. Disagree or not, there's no need for that kind of behaviour.

    I agree. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, and there's no reason to insult someone personally for that opinion.

    But we've been over this ground before. Having an opinion and expressing that opinion in a public forum are two very different things. Have an opinion parade in your backyard for all I care. But when you express that opinion in a public forum, you're presenting it to the world as something worthy of its consideration. And to that end, you need to support that opinion through logic, examples, and persuasive argument. Opinions that lack these things deserve our criticism -- and I mean criticism in the most academic sense of "analytial commentary" that reserves the right to point out a lack of logic, contrary examples, etc., etc. And opinions that fail this test dramatically deserve our contempt -- which is contempt for an idea, not a person. Different things here.

    This is not elitism. Support, logic, persuasive argument -- these are the principles that underpin the democratic exchange of ideas. And I choose the word "democratic" carefully. At the heart of democracy as an idea is the principle that you must convince me of the logic and soundness of your opinion through argumentation. If you abandon this first principle, you abandon the possibility of meaningful conversation.
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by wprager on Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:14 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    cash wrote:
    Michallica wrote:didn't gohan say 'he expected better from neely' when N4L quit? and now he's gone too.

    whatever. If ppl feel they're too good for a web forum then what can you do?

    Yeah I thought about that...and it really had little to do with the interaction today...I'm just tired of being the voice of reason (not to say there aren't many on this site...I just have no interest in being one of them anymore...)

    Oh, you mean policing other people's Dung is no fun? Huh. Why did N4L leave again? Oh yeah...

    Do we actually know why N4L left?
    It certainly appeared to be a bit of an over-reaction. N4L was never attacked or ambushed without having struck first. We can call it "abrasive style" all we want, but the reality is if this was a workplace he would have been let go long ago. I'm sure he does not act this way at work -- no matter how wrong his co-workers (or boss) may be in a particular situation. Why should it be any different on a message board?

    A sewage backup. That is: an overflow of weak hockey analysis from weak posters. N4L hates stupid, and feels personally obligated to stamp it out. It's an exhausting crusade that he gets sick of from time to time, I would imagine.

    Look, some opinions and analysis are better reasoned, more logical, and better supported than others. That's a fact of life that the politically-correct, 'we're all equal,' 'there are no losers' generation tries to stamp out of existence, but it's a fact nonetheless. When I want to hear about the youngsters, I want to hear from ASQ. When I
    want to chat cap, I want to hear from RobbyJ. When I want analysis of
    team dynamics and player psychology, I want to hear from N4L. It really is that simple. When the best opinions get buried underneath a landslide of crap and those posters have to fight and fight to make their point, well, the quality of the discussion droops and the best ideas don't get the consideration they deserve. Some people have earned the right to be more trusted, more vocal, and more authoritative than others, and N4L was one of those guys.

    From what I can gather, N4L valued this place because he thought it was a collection of the best of the best. When he sees that standard droop -- which, for him, is what happens when we're forced to value and respect opinions that have not proved valuable or earned our respect -- he despairs and leaves. He perhaps expects too much and is too much affected by stupid posts, but when he leaves, the point he is trying to make is that this site's high standard has been compromised.

    I don't think anyone is forcing anyone else to value their opinion (although Neely *did* on many occasions, albeit sometimes with tongue-in-cheek, pretty much said that we should value his). The old adage of attacking the post, not the poster kind of went out the window, at times. If someone has an opinion that the sky is about to fall down, and you respond stating "The pillars holding it up were just inspected last week; they are not going to fail now unless something drastic happens" is just not the same as "You don't know crap, go away".


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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by PTFlea on Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:16 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:
    I agree. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, and there's no reason to insult someone personally for that opinion.

    But we've been over this ground before. Having an opinion and expressing that opinion in a public forum are two very different things. Have an opinion parade in your backyard for all I care. But when you express that opinion in a public forum, you're presenting it to the world as something worthy of its consideration. And to that end, you need to support that opinion through logic, examples, and persuasive argument. Opinions that lack these things deserve our criticism -- and I mean criticism in the most academic sense of "analytial commentary" that reserves the right to point out a lack of logic, contrary examples, etc., etc. And opinions that fail this test dramatically deserve our contempt -- which is contempt for an idea, not a person. Different things here.

    This is not elitism. Support, logic, persuasive argument -- these are the principles that underpin the democratic exchange of ideas. And I choose the word "democratic" carefully. At the heart of democracy as an idea is the principle that you must convince me of the logic and soundness of your opinion through argumentation. If you abandon this first principle, you abandon the possibility of meaningful conversation.

    That's such BS it makes me physically sick. If all you can find on this site to talk to is Neely, Asq and RobbyJ, then you have your own issues that can be easily achieved by frequenting HFBoards. God, such the wrong attitude to have man, I don't know what to say. There are tons of people on this site that know what they're talking about, that goes from prospects to the cap to the NHL and everything in between. Some people have incorrect data and their POVs are wrong or skewed because of it, some people may not think as logically as others, but in the end it's pretty easy to tell what posters have solid contributions and what posters don't.

    Ignore those you don't wish to hear from, talk to the ones you do.

    How is that complicated? It's not man, it's lazy on your part. Again though, if you can only think of 2 guys on this site you want to converse with, you're in the wrong place I guess.

    Blah... Mad
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by wprager on Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:23 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:
    Dash wrote:Problem is with that attitude, it makes everyone else seem worthless. If we weren't mentioned, we have no valued opinion on this forum, so therefor we should expect to be told so if we post something that is disagreed with? Not only disagreed with but put down, have insults hurled our way? And if we cannot take it and leave, then we lack self-esteem? At that rate, this board would consist of a handful of members.

    Everyone here has an opinion and should be allowed to express it, without being attacked or insulted. Disagree or not, there's no need for that kind of behaviour.

    I agree. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, and there's no reason to insult someone personally for that opinion.

    But we've been over this ground before. Having an opinion and expressing that opinion in a public forum are two very different things. Have an opinion parade in your backyard for all I care. But when you express that opinion in a public forum, you're presenting it to the world as something worthy of its consideration. And to that end, you need to support that opinion through logic, examples, and persuasive argument. Opinions that lack these things deserve our criticism -- and I mean criticism in the most academic sense of "analytial commentary" that reserves the right to point out a lack of logic, contrary examples, etc., etc. And opinions that fail this test dramatically deserve our contempt -- which is contempt for an idea, not a person. Different things here.

    This is not elitism. Support, logic, persuasive argument -- these are the principles that underpin the democratic exchange of ideas. And I choose the word "democratic" carefully. At the heart of democracy as an idea is the principle that you must convince me of the logic and soundness of your opinion through argumentation. If you abandon this first principle, you abandon the possibility of meaningful conversation.

    If you still have a copy of that PM Neely sent you back then, go and read it over again. I don't know what he wrote you, but I assume it was very similar to what he wrote to me. He may have converted you over to his way of thinking (regarding Spezza) but it certainly was not that particular PM that brought you "into the light". Why are you so stubborn to admit that Neely -- for all his hockey knowledge -- is hot-headed (twice, now, deleting his account), abusive (I can find lots of examples, but the best ones, fortunately, have been deleted by the mods), arrogant and, sometimes, wrong.




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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by wprager on Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:31 pm

    SpezDispenser wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    I agree. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, and there's no reason to insult someone personally for that opinion.

    But we've been over this ground before. Having an opinion and expressing that opinion in a public forum are two very different things. Have an opinion parade in your backyard for all I care. But when you express that opinion in a public forum, you're presenting it to the world as something worthy of its consideration. And to that end, you need to support that opinion through logic, examples, and persuasive argument. Opinions that lack these things deserve our criticism -- and I mean criticism in the most academic sense of "analytial commentary" that reserves the right to point out a lack of logic, contrary examples, etc., etc. And opinions that fail this test dramatically deserve our contempt -- which is contempt for an idea, not a person. Different things here.

    This is not elitism. Support, logic, persuasive argument -- these are the principles that underpin the democratic exchange of ideas. And I choose the word "democratic" carefully. At the heart of democracy as an idea is the principle that you must convince me of the logic and soundness of your opinion through argumentation. If you abandon this first principle, you abandon the possibility of meaningful conversation.

    That's such BS it makes me physically sick. If all you can find on this site to talk to is Neely, Asq and RobbyJ, then you have your own issues that can be easily achieved by frequenting HFBoards. God, such the wrong attitude to have man, I don't know what to say. There are tons of people on this site that know what they're talking about, that goes from prospects to the cap to the NHL and everything in between. Some people have incorrect data and their POVs are wrong or skewed because of it, some people may not think as logically as others, but in the end it's pretty easy to tell what posters have solid contributions and what posters don't.

    Ignore those you don't wish to hear from, talk to the ones you do.

    How is that complicated? It's not man, it's lazy on your part. Again though, if you can only think of 2 guys on this site you want to converse with, you're in the wrong place I guess.

    Blah... Mad

    In your anger, you quoted the wrong post Smile

    To add a bit. And, please, I am not talking about any specific person. Really, I am not. One of the reasons to *not* ignore people whose opinion you disregard is because they tend to be easy marks. They say something (let's face it, sometimes either without thinking, or thinking badly -- I've done the former myself) and it's very easy to jump down their throats and correct them. Why people do that? In some cases it's because of their own insecurity -- I'm sure we all know people who put others down to prop themselves up. It's very unfortunate, but we've all been to kindergarten, so we've all experienced it first-hand. Others do it for altruistic reasons -- to educate. They take the opportunity of someone saying something stupid and use that as a springboard for a lesson. Others -- who knows, maybe it's just in their nature to be like that.


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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:55 pm

    Since your message to N4L has moved into a discussion about Neely leaving it's now getting merged with the original thread.

    Rooney: You've had your chance to contact N4L through this board.


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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by Ev on Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:55 pm

    This is exactly what he wanted to have happen, to have a thread created in his departure and for eveyrone to talk about him even when he is gone. He is an attention-whore, and he is probably still reading all of this.

    During the time I've been on this site, I haven't seen any person who's opinion was stupid at all. Everyone here is smart and knows their hockey for the most part. The only person that had such one-sided opinions was N4L, I don't even know why he goes on discussion boards if he doesn't like to here different sides to a topic.

    That being said, I won't talk about him anymore. Let's talk hockey or anything else.
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    Re: The State of discussions at GMHockey

    Post by rooneypoo on Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:25 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:On a related note:

    I've lost 10 rep points in less than a week, and about 27 over the last 3 or 4 months -- another sign of the times. When have I ever insulted anyone personally again, which is the one thing that's supposed to earn you a minus?

    Ridiculous. Someone is actually going back to my old posts and adding minuses at every chance. This site is chasing away its best regulars, and that's precisely what N4L is saying.

    I await the flood of more minuses for pointing out the completely obvious.

    To the gentleman who gave me this minus: thank you for underscoring my point so eloquently.

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