Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

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    wprager
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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by wprager on Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:38 pm

    shabbs wrote:Head to a Henry's and give them a feel man... when you feel it, you'll know.

    *that's what she said*

    Boom.

    I "feel" better when price matching is involved, and I "feel" badly to go to a place just to "test-drive" with no intention of picking it up.

    Does Henry's price match?

    On the other hand, as a consumer, all I can do is offer a fair deal to Henry's -- match the price and I'll gladly buy it there.

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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by wprager on Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:46 pm

    Number Twenty Nine wrote:
    wprager wrote:B&H will charge close to $10 for shipping and then $62 and change for "tax and duties". Adding up the price of the camera and the shipping fee, and then multiplying by 0.13, still comes up a couple bucks short of the $62+ charge they mention, so perhaps there is a *very* small duty applied? Weird, but I should be able to get a price-match at FS/BB.

    So, it comes down to these three: PowerShot G12, Lumix DMC FZ100K or the FinePix HS10.

    And of course all the others Smile

    if you're considering the G12, take a look at the S95 - essentially the same for less


    Not quite. The S95 is a compact. It doesn't have the swing-out LCD, it also doesn't do 4.2 fps continuous mode shooting (maxes out at 1.9). No hotshoe. Those three items are pretty well needed for me (well, depending on what the built-in flash is like, I might not need the hotshoe so much).

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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by dawg's wife on Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:13 am

    I'm telling you you need to look at the PowerShot SD4000IS.

    Dawg bought if for me and it's great. Amazon is almost 100.00 cheaper than anywhere else and I got it 2 days after it was ordered. used it today and was really impressed, and while I don't know what the number mean it's 3.7 FPS at full resolution.

    As far as a point and click goes, it's the best camera I've ever had and the price can't be beat...under 300.00

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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by wprager on Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:02 am

    DW, it's a great pocket camera, for sure, but there are things it just doesn't have. I really want at least a tilt LCD. There have been numerous times with my current camera where I had to lift it up over the crowd to take a picture -- you can imagine how those pics came out. With a swing-out LCD you can easily take a picture of yourself and it has the added benefit of protecting the LCD screen itself (flip it over when not in use). I've also had issues with the built-in flash being either too much (most close shots) or not enough, so the hotshoe is a really nice-to-have addition.

    I've been reading up on some of these numbers, specifically the aperture value (after Shabbs saying he was impressed with the f/2.0 on this camera). The aperture range on the SD4000 is f/2.0 - f/5.3. Surprisingly, the G12 is f/2.8 - f/4.5. I really thought it would be more versatile than that; the HS10 is f/2.8 to f/11 but that 11 is at the 30x end of the zoom range whereas the G12 is only a 5x. I'm not all that sure how everything comes into play, but I think the higher aperture value at the top end of the zoom range is more a *measure* of the lens limitation (i.e. at 30x the aperture *is* f/11, meaning you've got to use a slower shutter speed or have an under-exposed picture). Regardless, both the G12 and the HS10 have a maximum aperture of f/2.8, which is not as good as the SD4000's f/2.0.

    I must admit that I am still not very clear on exactly what all of this means, but enough to say that the f/2.0 probably gives the SD4000 better lowlight performance, and allows a faster shutter speed (for action shots) in non-flash situations. The ISO sensitivity also plays a hand, and all of these cameras have similar ISO ranges. Not sure how ISO ranges play a hand in digital photography because I always thought the ISO measured the speed of the film (and the camera would adjust its aperture/shutter speed settings based on the film being used. Since we're not swapping in different sensors like we used to load film, I'm not sure what changes as the ISO settings are adjusted.

    The continuous shooting mode on the SD4000 is actually not bad -- the 3.7 fps is at the highest resolution, and you get 8.4 at low light setting (the G12 is 4.2 fps at the low light setting, so half as fast).

    Frankly, I'm more confused than ever. I realize I'm not going to get the perfect camera in my price range, but it's frustrating when each camera sacrificing performance/features for price in different areas.

    The HS10 has almost all the features I want, but the LCD is kinda low-res and only tilts up/down.

    The G12 has a much nicer LCD (higher res and full swing out) but not as many features and a just-OK continuous shooting mode.

    The SD4000 takes great pictures but no tilt/swing LCD or hotshoe.

    Panasonic makes some nice cameras in my price range but they all have a fixed LCD.

    I usually don't like Sony as a rule, and their cameras didn't really do anything to change my opinion.

    Maybe I'll wait until next year Sad


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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by Number Twenty Nine on Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:06 am

    wprager wrote:
    Number Twenty Nine wrote:
    wprager wrote:B&H will charge close to $10 for shipping and then $62 and change for "tax and duties". Adding up the price of the camera and the shipping fee, and then multiplying by 0.13, still comes up a couple bucks short of the $62+ charge they mention, so perhaps there is a *very* small duty applied? Weird, but I should be able to get a price-match at FS/BB.

    So, it comes down to these three: PowerShot G12, Lumix DMC FZ100K or the FinePix HS10.

    And of course all the others Smile

    if you're considering the G12, take a look at the S95 - essentially the same for less


    Not quite. The S95 is a compact. It doesn't have the swing-out LCD, it also doesn't do 4.2 fps continuous mode shooting (maxes out at 1.9). No hotshoe. Those three items are pretty well needed for me (well, depending on what the built-in flash is like, I might not need the hotshoe so much).

    fast fps on a point and shoot is pretty much useless. I was talking IQ. IQ of the G12 and S95 are the same. The G12 is just an expensive point and shoot. I used to own a G9. and hated the shutter lag.

    I used to be obsessed with camera stuff (I had $10k in Canon gear), but I've toned it down considerably.

    like Shabbs said before, a camera can be a money pit.

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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by Number Twenty Nine on Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:13 am

    wprager wrote:DW, it's a great pocket camera, for sure, but there are things it just doesn't have. I really want at least a tilt LCD. There have been numerous times with my current camera where I had to lift it up over the crowd to take a picture -- you can imagine how those pics came out. With a swing-out LCD you can easily take a picture of yourself and it has the added benefit of protecting the LCD screen itself (flip it over when not in use). I've also had issues with the built-in flash being either too much (most close shots) or not enough, so the hotshoe is a really nice-to-have addition.

    I've been reading up on some of these numbers, specifically the aperture value (after Shabbs saying he was impressed with the f/2.0 on this camera). The aperture range on the SD4000 is f/2.0 - f/5.3. Surprisingly, the G12 is f/2.8 - f/4.5. I really thought it would be more versatile than that; the HS10 is f/2.8 to f/11 but that 11 is at the 30x end of the zoom range whereas the G12 is only a 5x. I'm not all that sure how everything comes into play, but I think the higher aperture value at the top end of the zoom range is more a *measure* of the lens limitation (i.e. at 30x the aperture *is* f/11, meaning you've got to use a slower shutter speed or have an under-exposed picture). Regardless, both the G12 and the HS10 have a maximum aperture of f/2.8, which is not as good as the SD4000's f/2.0.

    I must admit that I am still not very clear on exactly what all of this means, but enough to say that the f/2.0 probably gives the SD4000 better lowlight performance, and allows a faster shutter speed (for action shots) in non-flash situations. The ISO sensitivity also plays a hand, and all of these cameras have similar ISO ranges. Not sure how ISO ranges play a hand in digital photography because I always thought the ISO measured the speed of the film (and the camera would adjust its aperture/shutter speed settings based on the film being used. Since we're not swapping in different sensors like we used to load film, I'm not sure what changes as the ISO settings are adjusted.

    The continuous shooting mode on the SD4000 is actually not bad -- the 3.7 fps is at the highest resolution, and you get 8.4 at low light setting (the G12 is 4.2 fps at the low light setting, so half as fast).

    Frankly, I'm more confused than ever. I realize I'm not going to get the perfect camera in my price range, but it's frustrating when each camera sacrificing performance/features for price in different areas.

    The HS10 has almost all the features I want, but the LCD is kinda low-res and only tilts up/down.

    The G12 has a much nicer LCD (higher res and full swing out) but not as many features and a just-OK continuous shooting mode.

    The SD4000 takes great pictures but no tilt/swing LCD or hotshoe.

    Panasonic makes some nice cameras in my price range but they all have a fixed LCD.

    I usually don't like Sony as a rule, and their cameras didn't really do anything to change my opinion.

    Maybe I'll wait until next year Sad

    if you can live with no video, the Sony A330 is clearing out with two lenses for under $500.

    I think for your "criteria" there's probably none better than the Sony A33. I was close to buying it's big brother the A55, but ended up getting a T2i instead, since I'm getting a 5DMKII in the spring.

    The thing with cameras is that you're always chasing the "next best thing" and if you wait, you miss out now.
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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by shabbs on Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:32 am

    ISO refers to the sensitivity of your camera's sensor to light. The higher the number, the more sensitive it is and the less light it needs to create the picture properly.

    Problems show up on some cameras at higher ISO's such as 800, 1600 etc... where "noise" is introduced into the picture due to the increased sensitivity. This makes pictures look grainy when using a high ISO. Top of the line cameras have high-end sensors that can handle those high ISO's well. Your typical point and shoot will not perform very well at those levels.

    If you have lots of light (ie: outdoors on a sunny day) you can shoot at ISO100 and get nice sharp pictures as the shutterspeed can be quite fast since there is lots of light. When it's over cast outside, you may need ISO200 or ISO400 to account for the lower light level.

    If you're indoors and it's poor light, you may have to crank the ISO to 400 or even 800... at which point, the shutter speed will need to be slowed down to ensure a properly exposed picture.

    Taking night shots, you'll need ISO1600, ISO3200 or ISO6400 to stop the action properly. And you'll usually need a tripod to handle that.

    Shooting sports inside arenas such as hockey can present issues with low light. This is where a high end lens with a big aperture comes handy.

    For example, my Canon EF 70-300 IS USM has an aperture range of f4-5.6. At 70mm it's f4, at 300mm (fully zoomed) it's f5.6. When shooting hockey inside an arena, it can be difficult to get the right exposure as not enough light can get in and I'm forced to crank the ISO, introducing noise.

    This is why high-end zoom lenses that are f2 or f2.8 all the way through their zoom range are huge bucks (such as the Canon EF 70-200 f2.8 L IS USM lens - one that I would love to have).

    Hope that helps.

    It sounds like you are asking for quite a lot in a camera at your price level, and will have to compromise on something if you want to stay there, or step up to the DSLR world to get what you need, such as the Canon EOS 60D which I think has a flip out LCD. But then you're into spending a lot more $$$.
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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by shabbs on Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:35 am

    Number Twenty Nine wrote:since I'm getting a 5DMKII in the spring.
    Very nice!
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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by wprager on Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:41 am

    You've got a T2i now and you're getting the 5D in the spring? Can I have your hand-me-downs? You probably have a T1i just taking up space in your closet, somewhere Smile

    I can't find the A330 in any of the regular places (FS, BB, Amazon.ca). Henry's has the A390 for $500 and the A300 (I think this one does video) for $600. But I don't think either one of those has a tilt/swivel LCD.



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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by Number Twenty Nine on Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:56 am

    I saw the Sony A330 with 2 lens kit and bag at my local Costco for $439.

    As far as DSLRs with tilt/swivel screens: only the Olympus E-3, Olympus E-5 and Canon 60D have one like the G12. The Nikon D5000 has a similar screen, but it tilts down.

    I sell my hand-me downs :-)

    I rarely buy new now, since value drops so much from new.

    not sure if they ship to Canada:

    http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10051_10051_227015_-1
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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by Number Twenty Nine on Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:01 pm

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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by shabbs on Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:54 pm

    Number Twenty Nine wrote:how about this:

    PowerShot SX30 IS

    http://www.photoprice.ca/product/03310/Canon-PowerShot-SX30-IS-price.html
    That one should be a good one for you Prager. It's got the flip-out LCD and it uses a battery pack. No hotshoe though (not sure if you really need one though) and the burst image rate is lower than what you've mentioned with other cameras. Certainly one to consider. Very nice optical zoom range on it.
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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by wprager on Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:33 pm

    I've been checking out the SX30 IS and, yes, the continuous mode shooting speed of 1.2 fps is not a selling point for me (it goes up to 3.6 fps in "low light" mode, which results about a 2MP image size).

    The burst mode on the HS10 is hard to match in my price range -- it does 10 fps but only for a burst of 7 (6 for RAW); the last 7 mode is very cool for capturing sports action (keep going at 10 fps until, say, a goal is scored, then let go and you'll have the last 0.7 second's worth of action to pick from).

    The main drawback of the HS10 is the LCD -- it juts out and tilts 90 degrees up or 45 degrees down. If they could take Canon's fully rotating flip LCD with 450 k pixels and slap it on the HS10 I'd grab it right away; if they added Live View to it I'd run to the store in my PJs.


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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by shabbs on Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:28 pm

    Do you think you'll really use the burst mode? I've never even used that on my camera apart from "just trying it out" to be honest. I can take pretty rapid pictures as it without needing a bust mode. Not sure if the same can be said of the SX30 or if it suffers from that shutter lag delay that most point-and-shoots have (time between snapping shots).
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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by wprager on Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:42 pm

    There is a difference between fast shot-to-shot times on a dSLR and burst mode. Burst mode will typically lock in the AF, aperture and shutter speed and, of course, you can't use the flash. Some continuous modes will continue to adjust the AF but I'm not sure how successful they are.

    In my case I'd do this to try and take an action shot. You know how many times I tried taking a shot of a kid jumping in the trampoline without getting that truly great up-in-the air, perfectly in frame shot? And for hockey, trying to capture a goal it would be really helpful to have that last-7 mode the HS10 has.

    By the way, just got an e-mail from PayPal saying I get $20 off at Henry's.


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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by Number Twenty Nine on Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:13 pm

    this is why I think you are an ideal candidate for the SLT-A33 or SLT-A55 series from Sony. I *almost* bought one. It's got the best video AF for a "dslr" and it has high frame rates. I had a Nikon D300S 7fps and used it infrequently.
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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by wprager on Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:22 pm

    Number Twenty Nine wrote:this is why I think you are an ideal candidate for the SLT-A33 or SLT-A55 series from Sony. I *almost* bought one. It's got the best video AF for a "dslr" and it has high frame rates. I had a Nikon D300S 7fps and used it infrequently.

    If I'm still looking next year (and it's beginning to look like I might) it may make it into my price range.


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    Re: Looking for a good, yet inexpensive digital camera

    Post by wprager on Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:47 pm

    I think I just brought down the B&H site Sad


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