R.I.P. Jack Layton

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    wprager
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by wprager on Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:53 am

    NEELY wrote:Disagreed with pretty much everything he put out there but you gotta admire a guy that doesn't waiver from what he believes and a man that gave his all until the very end. Not sure why he gets a state funeral though and not sure why people are calling him a great Canadian either.

    State funeral because he was the leader of the official opposition?

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:16 am

    I disagree with it as it is usually only reserved for the GG or the PM. It's awful what he went through and I think he was a good man that cared about his country, but he didn't do anything. He got Quebec to vote NDP... that's about it.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by tim1_2 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:45 am

    NEELY wrote:I disagree with it as it is usually only reserved for the GG or the PM. It's awful what he went through and I think he was a good man that cared about his country, but he didn't do anything. He got Quebec to vote NDP... that's about it.

    That's a pretty douchey comment. Sometimes it's better not to say anything.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:34 am

    Might be douchey but it's true. Great NDP leader, by all accounts a good man that loved his country, never waivered from what he believed which has to be respected even if you don't agree with him. Great Canadian, state funeral? I don't get it as he really didn't do anything to deserve to be called a "Great Canadian" or to receive a state funeral.

    But you are probably right, shouldn't have said anything.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by wprager on Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:40 am

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_funeral#Canada:

    In Canada, state funerals are public events held to commemorate the memory of present and former governors general, present and former prime ministers, sitting members of the Ministry and other prominant Canadians at the discretion of the Prime Minister. With ceremonial, military, and religious elements incorporated, state funerals are offered and executed by the Government of Canada which provides a dignified manner for the Canadian people to mourn a national public figure.

    In August 2011, in a rare circumstance, Prime Minister Stephen Harper offered a state funeral for his political adversary and Leader of the Opposition, Jack Layton. Layton died of cancer only three months after his New Democratic Party became the official opposition, for the first time in his party's history.

    So, it's rare, but it's at the PM's discretion.


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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:47 am

    Absolutely it is, never argued otherwise. I also don't think it isn't a move made without calculation by Harper does. Even in death politics are still being played.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:50 am

    I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:55 am

    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Huge if. The NDP will go as Quebec goes.

    They also need way more experienced candidates and memebers to run if they have any shot at winning in places that actually pay attention to who they are voting for. A broom stick could have run for The NDP in Quebec and won, the rest of Canada is much more diligent when voting.

    Fact of the matter is, right now The NDP is in shambles, no leadership, no real focus, and right now in The HOC it's like The Team Canada Olympic Team going up against France, and France just lost their best player.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by PTFlea on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:02 am

    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Without Layton, I'll be impressed if the NDP simply survives as a party. Not trying to be an arse, but I only considered voting for NDP (and I did) because of Layton, now that he's gone, we're back to square one in terms of trusting a new leader.

    Won't be voting with them anytime soon, this is a HUGE opportunity for the Liberals to crawl back out of the loser's circle.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:02 am

    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Huge if. The NDP will go as Quebec goes.

    It's more like, Canada will go as Quebec goes. This is the first time in Canadian political history that a party has gained a majority government without getting Quebec on board. Historically, to earn a majority government in Canada, PMs have always had to broker some kind of alliance between Quebec and some other part of the country. Time will tell if this Alberta / Ontario alliance can hold.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:07 am

    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Huge if. The NDP will go as Quebec goes.

    They also need way more experienced candidates and memebers to run if they have any shot at winning in places that actually pay attention to who they are voting for. A broom stick could have run for The NDP in Quebec and won, the rest of Canada is much more diligent when voting.

    Fact of the matter is, right now The NDP is in shambles, no leadership, no real focus, and right now in The HOC it's like The Team Canada Olympic Team going up against France, and France just lost their best player.

    Thomas Mulcair will be the new leader, if I had to guess -- and there's a cut-throat, hard-nosed finisher if I ever saw one. Mulcair will just have to harness the party apparatus Layton put in place to maintain the momentum he gained.

    I see Layton's death acting as much as a galvanizing, unifying force as one that destabilizes the party. Jack's vision and that remarkable letter will be reference points for the next NDP leader, for sure. And if you can tie politics and emotion together, you've gone a long way towards establishing loyalty.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:10 am

    Quebec will eventually find out that the NDP is like every other party in terms of what they can give to Quebec and IMO, it will be the oposite of what you just said. If The NDP just focus on what's good for Quebec both the Liberlas (who are still a party) and The Cons will use that going forward. People in Ontario from the center left who may have voted NDP will absolutely go back to voting Liberal if their cries are not heard (and it seems they won't be based on the last few months) and the people tha voted Con from the center right will go and vote liberal if they are not happy with the current government.

    Also, with Alberta and Ontario getting more seats, Quebec becomes that much less relivant in terms of how they vote. Eventually it will be the Liberals and Cons again fighting it out. People voted for Jack, not The NDP. It also doesn't help having a seperatist at the helm.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:13 am

    SpezDispenser wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Without Layton, I'll be impressed if the NDP simply survives as a party. Not trying to be an arse, but I only considered voting for NDP (and I did) because of Layton, now that he's gone, we're back to square one in terms of trusting a new leader.

    Won't be voting with them anytime soon, this is a HUGE opportunity for the Liberals to crawl back out of the loser's circle.

    Uh, you're kidding, right? The NDP has been around in one for or another for over 50 years, and has survived the lose of leaders like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent.

    People for the most part vote for personalities and not policies. Jack's charisma was a key cog in the party's rise, but in the end, he was representing a party and a party platform that he shaped in conjunction with his caucus. If you stop voting NDP based on personalities instead of ideas, I have to wonder how well you understood what Jack was selling you on when you voted for him. Jack may be gone, but the party's core values will certainly continue to reflect Jack's.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:15 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Huge if. The NDP will go as Quebec goes.

    They also need way more experienced candidates and memebers to run if they have any shot at winning in places that actually pay attention to who they are voting for. A broom stick could have run for The NDP in Quebec and won, the rest of Canada is much more diligent when voting.

    Fact of the matter is, right now The NDP is in shambles, no leadership, no real focus, and right now in The HOC it's like The Team Canada Olympic Team going up against France, and France just lost their best player.

    Thomas Mulcair will be the new leader, if I had to guess -- and there's a cut-throat, hard-nosed finisher if I ever saw one. Mulcair will just have to harness the party apparatus Layton put in place to maintain the momentum he gained.

    I see Layton's death acting as much as a galvanizing, unifying force as one that destabilizes the party. Jack's vision and that remarkable letter will be reference points for the next NDP leader, for sure. And if you can tie politics and emotion together, you've gone a long way towards establishing loyalty.

    Like most things it's what have you done for me lately and if people think Harper and The Cons are going to be taking a bar tender or a 19 year old political sceince student seriously, that's just niave.

    Muclair, while probably the most reputable and logical choice going forward did just come out and question The President of The United States about Bin Ladin. That showed just how little control he has over himself let alone the party. Like it or not, people with inexperience say and do a lot of stupid things and it will not be any different in the next 4 years. We'll see what Quebec does, they do have enough seats at present and in the future to keep them as the offical oposition but they will never form government and absolutely will never form a majority in it's current state.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:17 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    SpezDispenser wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Without Layton, I'll be impressed if the NDP simply survives as a party. Not trying to be an arse, but I only considered voting for NDP (and I did) because of Layton, now that he's gone, we're back to square one in terms of trusting a new leader.

    Won't be voting with them anytime soon, this is a HUGE opportunity for the Liberals to crawl back out of the loser's circle.

    Uh, you're kidding, right? The NDP has been around in one for or another for over 50 years, and has survived the lose of leaders like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent.

    People for the most part vote for personalities and not policies. Jack's charisma was a key cog in the party's rise, but in the end, he was representing a party and a party platform that he shaped in conjunction with his caucus. If you stop voting NDP based on personalities instead of ideas, I have to wonder how well you understood what Jack was selling you on when you voted for him. Jack may be gone, but the party's core values will certainly continue to reflect Jack's.


    Yup and that's the problem.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by PTFlea on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:20 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    Uh, you're kidding, right? The NDP has been around in one for or another for over 50 years, and has survived the lose of leaders like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent.

    People for the most part vote for personalities and not policies. Jack's charisma was a key cog in the party's rise, but in the end, he was representing a party and a party platform that he shaped in conjunction with his caucus. If you stop voting NDP based on personalities instead of ideas, I have to wonder how well you understood what Jack was selling you on when you voted for him. Jack may be gone, but the party's core values will certainly continue to reflect Jack's.

    Not kidding at all right now. We'll see if the Liberals bounce back at the NDP's expense next election - I wouldn't be surprised at all. This hurts them more than you think, I think.

    However, I'm happy to wait until the next election before debating it. There's...many other things that interest me a lot more than politics to be painfully honest.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:24 am

    NEELY wrote:Quebec will eventually find out that the NDP is like every other party in terms of what they can give to Quebec and IMO, it will be the oposite of what you just said. If The NDP just focus on what's good for Quebec both the Liberlas (who are still a party) and The Cons will use that going forward. People in Ontario from the center left who may have voted NDP will absolutely go back to voting Liberal if their cries are not heard (and it seems they won't be based on the last few months) and the people tha voted Con from the center right will go and vote liberal if they are not happy with the current government.

    Also, with Alberta and Ontario getting more seats, Quebec becomes that much less relivant in terms of how they vote. Eventually it will be the Liberals and Cons again fighting it out. People voted for Jack, not The NDP. It also doesn't help having a seperatist at the helm.

    I didn't say any of the things you just said.

    I said, historically, no PM before Harper this year has governed Canada with majority without Quebec, and that what the NDP needs to do is to maintain Quebec while forging strong ties with another region. Holding Quebec right now is, in my opinion, a huge advantage going forward because usually the party who governs Quebec ends up governing Canada.

    Anyway, constitutionally -- remember, Quebec didn't ratify the 1981 agreement, so the terms of the old one still hold -- Quebec is guaranteed a certain portion of the seats in the house. Until that issue is resolved, Quebec will not lose its prominent place in the house regardless of population shifts.

    To my eyes, the Liberals are in very bad shape. The lost their ring leaders in Chreitien and Martin, and have been floundering ever since: Dion, Ignatieff, now Rae. They have no leader prospects right now, none, beyond a very young Justin Trudeau.

    With their 100+ seats in the house, a well-oiled party apparatus (thanks to Jack), and would-be leaders like Mulcair in waiting, the NDP is infinitely better positioned to succeed in the next decade than the Liberals.

    Regardless of what either party does, however, the sad truth is that we are posed for a Conservative majority government for the next 8 years, minimum. Buckle up!

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:27 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:Quebec will eventually find out that the NDP is like every other party in terms of what they can give to Quebec and IMO, it will be the oposite of what you just said. If The NDP just focus on what's good for Quebec both the Liberlas (who are still a party) and The Cons will use that going forward. People in Ontario from the center left who may have voted NDP will absolutely go back to voting Liberal if their cries are not heard (and it seems they won't be based on the last few months) and the people tha voted Con from the center right will go and vote liberal if they are not happy with the current government.

    Also, with Alberta and Ontario getting more seats, Quebec becomes that much less relivant in terms of how they vote. Eventually it will be the Liberals and Cons again fighting it out. People voted for Jack, not The NDP. It also doesn't help having a seperatist at the helm.

    I didn't say any of the things you just said.

    I said, historically, no PM before Harper this year has governed Canada with majority without Quebec, and that what the NDP needs to do is to maintain Quebec while forging strong ties with another region. Holding Quebec right now is, in my opinion, a huge advantage going forward because usually the party who governs Quebec ends up governing Canada.

    Anyway, constitutionally -- remember, Quebec didn't ratify the 1981 agreement, so the terms of the old one still hold -- Quebec is guaranteed a certain portion of the seats in the house. Until that issue is resolved, Quebec will not lose its prominent place in the house regardless of population shifts.

    To my eyes, the Liberals are in very bad shape. The lost their ring leaders in Chreitien and Martin, and have been floundering ever since: Dion, Ignatieff, now Rae. They have no leader prospects right now, none, beyond a very young Justin Trudeau.

    With their 100+ seats in the house, a well-oiled party apparatus (thanks to Jack), and would-be leaders like Mulcair in waiting, the NDP is infinitely better positioned to succeed in the next decade than the Liberals.

    Regardless of what either party does, however, the sad truth is that we are posed for a Conservative majority government for the next 8 years, minimum. Buckle up!

    I'm on the right side of things so it's not a sad truth to me. I think Quebec is gauranteed a certain amount of seats in the house and not a certain proportion but correct me if I am wrong. Either way, going forward Alberta is getting more seats for sure along with Quebec.

    The Liberals are perhaps weaker than many people realize but that works in The Cons favour less so than The NDP because the people who actually vote tend to be in the middle or the center right outside of Quebec. That will absolutely push The Cons going forward.

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