R.I.P. Jack Layton

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by PTFlea on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:20 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    Uh, you're kidding, right? The NDP has been around in one for or another for over 50 years, and has survived the lose of leaders like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent.

    People for the most part vote for personalities and not policies. Jack's charisma was a key cog in the party's rise, but in the end, he was representing a party and a party platform that he shaped in conjunction with his caucus. If you stop voting NDP based on personalities instead of ideas, I have to wonder how well you understood what Jack was selling you on when you voted for him. Jack may be gone, but the party's core values will certainly continue to reflect Jack's.

    Not kidding at all right now. We'll see if the Liberals bounce back at the NDP's expense next election - I wouldn't be surprised at all. This hurts them more than you think, I think.

    However, I'm happy to wait until the next election before debating it. There's...many other things that interest me a lot more than politics to be painfully honest.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:24 am

    NEELY wrote:Quebec will eventually find out that the NDP is like every other party in terms of what they can give to Quebec and IMO, it will be the oposite of what you just said. If The NDP just focus on what's good for Quebec both the Liberlas (who are still a party) and The Cons will use that going forward. People in Ontario from the center left who may have voted NDP will absolutely go back to voting Liberal if their cries are not heard (and it seems they won't be based on the last few months) and the people tha voted Con from the center right will go and vote liberal if they are not happy with the current government.

    Also, with Alberta and Ontario getting more seats, Quebec becomes that much less relivant in terms of how they vote. Eventually it will be the Liberals and Cons again fighting it out. People voted for Jack, not The NDP. It also doesn't help having a seperatist at the helm.

    I didn't say any of the things you just said.

    I said, historically, no PM before Harper this year has governed Canada with majority without Quebec, and that what the NDP needs to do is to maintain Quebec while forging strong ties with another region. Holding Quebec right now is, in my opinion, a huge advantage going forward because usually the party who governs Quebec ends up governing Canada.

    Anyway, constitutionally -- remember, Quebec didn't ratify the 1981 agreement, so the terms of the old one still hold -- Quebec is guaranteed a certain portion of the seats in the house. Until that issue is resolved, Quebec will not lose its prominent place in the house regardless of population shifts.

    To my eyes, the Liberals are in very bad shape. The lost their ring leaders in Chreitien and Martin, and have been floundering ever since: Dion, Ignatieff, now Rae. They have no leader prospects right now, none, beyond a very young Justin Trudeau.

    With their 100+ seats in the house, a well-oiled party apparatus (thanks to Jack), and would-be leaders like Mulcair in waiting, the NDP is infinitely better positioned to succeed in the next decade than the Liberals.

    Regardless of what either party does, however, the sad truth is that we are posed for a Conservative majority government for the next 8 years, minimum. Buckle up!

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:27 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:Quebec will eventually find out that the NDP is like every other party in terms of what they can give to Quebec and IMO, it will be the oposite of what you just said. If The NDP just focus on what's good for Quebec both the Liberlas (who are still a party) and The Cons will use that going forward. People in Ontario from the center left who may have voted NDP will absolutely go back to voting Liberal if their cries are not heard (and it seems they won't be based on the last few months) and the people tha voted Con from the center right will go and vote liberal if they are not happy with the current government.

    Also, with Alberta and Ontario getting more seats, Quebec becomes that much less relivant in terms of how they vote. Eventually it will be the Liberals and Cons again fighting it out. People voted for Jack, not The NDP. It also doesn't help having a seperatist at the helm.

    I didn't say any of the things you just said.

    I said, historically, no PM before Harper this year has governed Canada with majority without Quebec, and that what the NDP needs to do is to maintain Quebec while forging strong ties with another region. Holding Quebec right now is, in my opinion, a huge advantage going forward because usually the party who governs Quebec ends up governing Canada.

    Anyway, constitutionally -- remember, Quebec didn't ratify the 1981 agreement, so the terms of the old one still hold -- Quebec is guaranteed a certain portion of the seats in the house. Until that issue is resolved, Quebec will not lose its prominent place in the house regardless of population shifts.

    To my eyes, the Liberals are in very bad shape. The lost their ring leaders in Chreitien and Martin, and have been floundering ever since: Dion, Ignatieff, now Rae. They have no leader prospects right now, none, beyond a very young Justin Trudeau.

    With their 100+ seats in the house, a well-oiled party apparatus (thanks to Jack), and would-be leaders like Mulcair in waiting, the NDP is infinitely better positioned to succeed in the next decade than the Liberals.

    Regardless of what either party does, however, the sad truth is that we are posed for a Conservative majority government for the next 8 years, minimum. Buckle up!

    I'm on the right side of things so it's not a sad truth to me. I think Quebec is gauranteed a certain amount of seats in the house and not a certain proportion but correct me if I am wrong. Either way, going forward Alberta is getting more seats for sure along with Quebec.

    The Liberals are perhaps weaker than many people realize but that works in The Cons favour less so than The NDP because the people who actually vote tend to be in the middle or the center right outside of Quebec. That will absolutely push The Cons going forward.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:28 am

    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Huge if. The NDP will go as Quebec goes.

    They also need way more experienced candidates and memebers to run if they have any shot at winning in places that actually pay attention to who they are voting for. A broom stick could have run for The NDP in Quebec and won, the rest of Canada is much more diligent when voting.

    Fact of the matter is, right now The NDP is in shambles, no leadership, no real focus, and right now in The HOC it's like The Team Canada Olympic Team going up against France, and France just lost their best player.

    Thomas Mulcair will be the new leader, if I had to guess -- and there's a cut-throat, hard-nosed finisher if I ever saw one. Mulcair will just have to harness the party apparatus Layton put in place to maintain the momentum he gained.

    I see Layton's death acting as much as a galvanizing, unifying force as one that destabilizes the party. Jack's vision and that remarkable letter will be reference points for the next NDP leader, for sure. And if you can tie politics and emotion together, you've gone a long way towards establishing loyalty.

    Like most things it's what have you done for me lately and if people think Harper and The Cons are going to be taking a bar tender or a 19 year old political sceince student seriously, that's just niave.

    Muclair, while probably the most reputable and logical choice going forward did just come out and question The President of The United States about Bin Ladin. That showed just how little control he has over himself let alone the party. Like it or not, people with inexperience say and do a lot of stupid things and it will not be any different in the next 4 years. We'll see what Quebec does, they do have enough seats at present and in the future to keep them as the offical oposition but they will never form government and absolutely will never form a majority in it's current state.

    Thomas Mulcair is a seasoned politician with over 25 years of experience in political life, not some 19-year-old kid from McGill. It's a no-brainer.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:30 am

    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    SpezDispenser wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Without Layton, I'll be impressed if the NDP simply survives as a party. Not trying to be an arse, but I only considered voting for NDP (and I did) because of Layton, now that he's gone, we're back to square one in terms of trusting a new leader.

    Won't be voting with them anytime soon, this is a HUGE opportunity for the Liberals to crawl back out of the loser's circle.

    Uh, you're kidding, right? The NDP has been around in one for or another for over 50 years, and has survived the lose of leaders like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent.

    People for the most part vote for personalities and not policies. Jack's charisma was a key cog in the party's rise, but in the end, he was representing a party and a party platform that he shaped in conjunction with his caucus. If you stop voting NDP based on personalities instead of ideas, I have to wonder how well you understood what Jack was selling you on when you voted for him. Jack may be gone, but the party's core values will certainly continue to reflect Jack's.


    Yup and that's the problem.

    The NDP is a left-leaning party, always has been, always will be. There's no sugar-coating that. If you voted Jack but normally don't vote left or are ideologically opposed to the left, then you're either a sucker for charisma or don't follow politics very closely.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:30 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Huge if. The NDP will go as Quebec goes.

    They also need way more experienced candidates and memebers to run if they have any shot at winning in places that actually pay attention to who they are voting for. A broom stick could have run for The NDP in Quebec and won, the rest of Canada is much more diligent when voting.

    Fact of the matter is, right now The NDP is in shambles, no leadership, no real focus, and right now in The HOC it's like The Team Canada Olympic Team going up against France, and France just lost their best player.

    Thomas Mulcair will be the new leader, if I had to guess -- and there's a cut-throat, hard-nosed finisher if I ever saw one. Mulcair will just have to harness the party apparatus Layton put in place to maintain the momentum he gained.

    I see Layton's death acting as much as a galvanizing, unifying force as one that destabilizes the party. Jack's vision and that remarkable letter will be reference points for the next NDP leader, for sure. And if you can tie politics and emotion together, you've gone a long way towards establishing loyalty.

    Like most things it's what have you done for me lately and if people think Harper and The Cons are going to be taking a bar tender or a 19 year old political sceince student seriously, that's just niave.

    Muclair, while probably the most reputable and logical choice going forward did just come out and question The President of The United States about Bin Ladin. That showed just how little control he has over himself let alone the party. Like it or not, people with inexperience say and do a lot of stupid things and it will not be any different in the next 4 years. We'll see what Quebec does, they do have enough seats at present and in the future to keep them as the offical oposition but they will never form government and absolutely will never form a majority in it's current state.

    Thomas Mulcair is a seasoned politician with over 25 years of experience in political life, not some 19-year-old kid from McGill. It's a no-brainer.

    Absolutely and that's why it was amazing to see him say what he said back in May. If he can't keep his stupid opinions and comments to himself how can he expect anyone else to?

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:32 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    SpezDispenser wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Without Layton, I'll be impressed if the NDP simply survives as a party. Not trying to be an arse, but I only considered voting for NDP (and I did) because of Layton, now that he's gone, we're back to square one in terms of trusting a new leader.

    Won't be voting with them anytime soon, this is a HUGE opportunity for the Liberals to crawl back out of the loser's circle.

    Uh, you're kidding, right? The NDP has been around in one for or another for over 50 years, and has survived the lose of leaders like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent.

    People for the most part vote for personalities and not policies. Jack's charisma was a key cog in the party's rise, but in the end, he was representing a party and a party platform that he shaped in conjunction with his caucus. If you stop voting NDP based on personalities instead of ideas, I have to wonder how well you understood what Jack was selling you on when you voted for him. Jack may be gone, but the party's core values will certainly continue to reflect Jack's.


    Yup and that's the problem.

    The NDP is a left-leaning party, always has been, always will be. There's no sugar-coating that. If you voted Jack but normally don't vote left or are ideologically opposed to the left, then you're either a sucker for charisma or don't follow politics very closely.

    That's exactly it. Without Layton The NDP will have a hard time getting votes because right now they are a party of Quebec, not Canada. That's how most people see it and based on their comment about the consitution and Quebec's rights, that's how it is... also a seperatist as the iterm leader, the optics are awful for them right now in the rest of Canada.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:33 am

    SpezDispenser wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Uh, you're kidding, right? The NDP has been around in one for or another for over 50 years, and has survived the lose of leaders like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent.

    People for the most part vote for personalities and not policies. Jack's charisma was a key cog in the party's rise, but in the end, he was representing a party and a party platform that he shaped in conjunction with his caucus. If you stop voting NDP based on personalities instead of ideas, I have to wonder how well you understood what Jack was selling you on when you voted for him. Jack may be gone, but the party's core values will certainly continue to reflect Jack's.

    Not kidding at all right now. We'll see if the Liberals bounce back at the NDP's expense next election - I wouldn't be surprised at all. This hurts them more than you think, I think.

    However, I'm happy to wait until the next election before debating it. There's...many other things that interest me a lot more than politics to be painfully honest.

    The Liberals are in far worse shape than the NDP right now. A decade of decline, no real leader prospects beyond a young Justin Trudeau, no real grass-roots party apparatus, and barely enough seats in the house to maintain their official "party" status. Jack left the NDP with 100+ seats, a strong grass-roots base, and a handful of strong leadership candidates, especially Mulcair, who he siphoned away from the Liberals.

    Look, Canada is headed for a long nightmare of conservative rule anyway, given the position of both parties, but the NDP is better positioned to survive and thrive than the Liberals. I can honestly see the Liberals getting wiped out completed, ala Mulrooney's conservatives, or forced into a merger ala the Progressive Conservatives and the Alliance.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:38 am

    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Huge if. The NDP will go as Quebec goes.

    They also need way more experienced candidates and memebers to run if they have any shot at winning in places that actually pay attention to who they are voting for. A broom stick could have run for The NDP in Quebec and won, the rest of Canada is much more diligent when voting.

    Fact of the matter is, right now The NDP is in shambles, no leadership, no real focus, and right now in The HOC it's like The Team Canada Olympic Team going up against France, and France just lost their best player.

    Thomas Mulcair will be the new leader, if I had to guess -- and there's a cut-throat, hard-nosed finisher if I ever saw one. Mulcair will just have to harness the party apparatus Layton put in place to maintain the momentum he gained.

    I see Layton's death acting as much as a galvanizing, unifying force as one that destabilizes the party. Jack's vision and that remarkable letter will be reference points for the next NDP leader, for sure. And if you can tie politics and emotion together, you've gone a long way towards establishing loyalty.

    Like most things it's what have you done for me lately and if people think Harper and The Cons are going to be taking a bar tender or a 19 year old political sceince student seriously, that's just niave.

    Muclair, while probably the most reputable and logical choice going forward did just come out and question The President of The United States about Bin Ladin. That showed just how little control he has over himself let alone the party. Like it or not, people with inexperience say and do a lot of stupid things and it will not be any different in the next 4 years. We'll see what Quebec does, they do have enough seats at present and in the future to keep them as the offical oposition but they will never form government and absolutely will never form a majority in it's current state.

    Thomas Mulcair is a seasoned politician with over 25 years of experience in political life, not some 19-year-old kid from McGill. It's a no-brainer.

    Absolutely and that's why it was amazing to see him say what he said back in May. If he can't keep his stupid opinions and comments to himself how can he expect anyone else to?

    Meh, brain farts happen, especially when you're campaigning 16-18 hours a day for 30+ days straight. He later, btw, retracted and apologized for the statement.

    I could pull up 100 stupid, insensitive, mind-boggling statements from Harper, and it never really hurt him in the long run. Hell, just look here: http://Dung.ca.nyud.net/ and http://www.youtube.com/user/Dung. There was a "Dung Harper Said" webpage somewhere, too, but I can't find it anymore.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:41 am

    Absolutely but he doesn't say it when all eyes are on him either. The NDP is going to be looked at with a miscrscope going forward, even more so now. Every little thing they say and do will be analyzed and personally, I don't think there is enough experience or leadership to really avoid it all.

    Next election, if The Greens got elected in Quebec like The NDP did this time I wouldn't be shocked. May just has to go on a French TV show and look good, Quebec will follow like Sheep.

    As long as there are 3 left leaning parties splitting the vote, Harper will have a majority for 8-12 years without much opposition.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:42 am

    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    SpezDispenser wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Without Layton, I'll be impressed if the NDP simply survives as a party. Not trying to be an arse, but I only considered voting for NDP (and I did) because of Layton, now that he's gone, we're back to square one in terms of trusting a new leader.

    Won't be voting with them anytime soon, this is a HUGE opportunity for the Liberals to crawl back out of the loser's circle.

    Uh, you're kidding, right? The NDP has been around in one for or another for over 50 years, and has survived the lose of leaders like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent.

    People for the most part vote for personalities and not policies. Jack's charisma was a key cog in the party's rise, but in the end, he was representing a party and a party platform that he shaped in conjunction with his caucus. If you stop voting NDP based on personalities instead of ideas, I have to wonder how well you understood what Jack was selling you on when you voted for him. Jack may be gone, but the party's core values will certainly continue to reflect Jack's.


    Yup and that's the problem.

    The NDP is a left-leaning party, always has been, always will be. There's no sugar-coating that. If you voted Jack but normally don't vote left or are ideologically opposed to the left, then you're either a sucker for charisma or don't follow politics very closely.

    That's exactly it. Without Layton The NDP will have a hard time getting votes because right now they are a party of Quebec, not Canada. That's how most people see it and based on their comment about the consitution and Quebec's rights, that's how it is... also a seperatist as the iterm leader, the optics are awful for them right now in the rest of Canada.

    Yep, that's a difficult line they're have to walk. That's always been the way, tho' -- holding onto Quebec while finding a way to build a consensus with another region. I'm not saying it's easy to do, just that no one in Canadian history before Harper has managed to secure a majority without Quebec. So, holding Quebec now is a huge advantage for the NDP.

    As for Turmel, she is clearly not a threat to become leader. Guys like Mulcair and Paul Dewar are the ones to look to.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:44 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    SpezDispenser wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a public outpouring like this for a Canadian politician before. Maybe Trudeau, that's it. Jack Layton will probably be as important to Canadian politics posthumously as he was when alive. And I mean that as a testimony to his enduring relevance, and not a slight. If/when the NDP manage to topple the Conservatives in the next 8-12 years, it will have had a lot to do with what Layton in the last decade.

    Without Layton, I'll be impressed if the NDP simply survives as a party. Not trying to be an arse, but I only considered voting for NDP (and I did) because of Layton, now that he's gone, we're back to square one in terms of trusting a new leader.

    Won't be voting with them anytime soon, this is a HUGE opportunity for the Liberals to crawl back out of the loser's circle.

    Uh, you're kidding, right? The NDP has been around in one for or another for over 50 years, and has survived the lose of leaders like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent.

    People for the most part vote for personalities and not policies. Jack's charisma was a key cog in the party's rise, but in the end, he was representing a party and a party platform that he shaped in conjunction with his caucus. If you stop voting NDP based on personalities instead of ideas, I have to wonder how well you understood what Jack was selling you on when you voted for him. Jack may be gone, but the party's core values will certainly continue to reflect Jack's.


    Yup and that's the problem.

    The NDP is a left-leaning party, always has been, always will be. There's no sugar-coating that. If you voted Jack but normally don't vote left or are ideologically opposed to the left, then you're either a sucker for charisma or don't follow politics very closely.

    That's exactly it. Without Layton The NDP will have a hard time getting votes because right now they are a party of Quebec, not Canada. That's how most people see it and based on their comment about the consitution and Quebec's rights, that's how it is... also a seperatist as the iterm leader, the optics are awful for them right now in the rest of Canada.

    Yep, that's a difficult line they're have to walk. That's always been the way, tho' -- holding onto Quebec while finding a way to build a consensus with another region. I'm not saying it's easy to do, just that no one in Canadian history before Harper has managed to secure a majority without Quebec. So, holding Quebec now is a huge advantage for the NDP.

    As for Turmel, she is clearly not a threat to become leader. Guys like Mulcair and Paul Dewar are the ones to look to.

    That's an MP that people could take seriously and actually can connect with the common VOTER, no person.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:44 am

    NEELY wrote:Absolutely but he doesn't say it when all eyes are on him either. The NDP is going to be looked at with a miscrscope going forward, even more so now. Every little thing they say and do will be analyzed and personally, I don't think there is enough experience or leadership to really avoid it all.

    Next election, if The Greens got elected in Quebec like The NDP did this time I wouldn't be shocked. May just has to go on a French TV show and look good, Quebec will follow like Sheep.

    As long as there are 3 left leaning parties splitting the vote, Harper will have a majority for 8-12 years without much opposition.

    I think that would have happened even with Layton. The near-demise of the Liberal party has really shaken up the Canadian political scene.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:50 am

    Maybe, maybe not. Tough to speculate on that one right there but yah, The Liberals have a lot of work to do to be sure. Eventually Canada will be a two party system, probably within the next 20 years.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:16 am

    I'll say this though, if Layton will have any legacy going forward it will be that he took Quebec back from the seperatists, but that remains to be seen.

    If though, Quebec from here on out votes for a federal party (which I doubt personally) Layton will get all the credit in the world for bringing Canada closer together. I just don't think that will happen and the history books will say Quebec voted NDP for one election.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:22 am

    NEELY wrote:I'll say this though, if Layton will have any legacy going forward it will be that he took Quebec back from the seperatists, but that remains to be seen.

    If though, Quebec from here on out votes for a federal party (which I doubt personally) Layton will get all the credit in the world for bringing Canada closer together. I just don't think that will happen and the history books will say Quebec voted NDP for one election.

    I think that having a separatist party at the national / federal level is a thing of the past. The Bloc is dead. The provincial PQ will be the ones to carry the separatist torch. That's why Jack's landing of Quebec is so huge; gaining Quebec has historically been the first or last step a would-PM needed to take before actually becoming the PM. It will be up to the NDP to hold onto Quebec, and then to convince other regions that the NDP is both a government-in-waiting and a firmly federalist party of which Quebec is one informing voice rather the controlling partner.

    It's still a better foundation to build on than what the Liberals are currently standing on.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:23 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:I'll say this though, if Layton will have any legacy going forward it will be that he took Quebec back from the seperatists, but that remains to be seen.

    If though, Quebec from here on out votes for a federal party (which I doubt personally) Layton will get all the credit in the world for bringing Canada closer together. I just don't think that will happen and the history books will say Quebec voted NDP for one election.

    I think that having a separatist party at the national / federal level is a thing of the past. The Bloc is dead. The provincial PQ will be the ones to carry the separatist torch. That's why Jack's landing of Quebec is so huge; gaining Quebec has historically been the first or last step a would-PM needed to take before actually becoming the PM. It will be up to the NDP to hold onto Quebec, and then to convince other regions that the NDP is both a government-in-waiting and a firmly federalist party of which Quebec is one informing voice rather the controlling partner.

    It's still a better foundation to build on than what the Liberals are currently standing on.

    I disagree with that more than you can imgaine but it has yet to be seen and can't really be debated.
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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

    Post by rooneypoo on Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:37 am

    NEELY wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    NEELY wrote:I'll say this though, if Layton will have any legacy going forward it will be that he took Quebec back from the seperatists, but that remains to be seen.

    If though, Quebec from here on out votes for a federal party (which I doubt personally) Layton will get all the credit in the world for bringing Canada closer together. I just don't think that will happen and the history books will say Quebec voted NDP for one election.

    I think that having a separatist party at the national / federal level is a thing of the past. The Bloc is dead. The provincial PQ will be the ones to carry the separatist torch. That's why Jack's landing of Quebec is so huge; gaining Quebec has historically been the first or last step a would-PM needed to take before actually becoming the PM. It will be up to the NDP to hold onto Quebec, and then to convince other regions that the NDP is both a government-in-waiting and a firmly federalist party of which Quebec is one informing voice rather the controlling partner.

    It's still a better foundation to build on than what the Liberals are currently standing on.

    I disagree with that more than you can imgaine but it has yet to be seen and can't really be debated.

    I don't mean that the sovereignty movement is dead. The PQ is set to take back the province, and has a strong separatist contingent. But a national party dedicated to sovereignty, ala the Bloc, is a thing of the past. The beating they took this year was second only to that of the conservatives in the 1993 election. Quebec got tired of a "national" party that, de facto, could never accomplish anything on the national stage because its raison d'etre was always already provincial in scope.

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    Re: R.I.P. Jack Layton

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