Refereeing and what can be done

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    wprager
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by wprager on Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:08 pm

    I like the idea about keeping your right to challenge until you lose a challenge.

    I'd like to also eliminate more grey areas. There are so many of them, though. Tell me, what is the purpose of a player slapping an opposing player from behind with his stick. He doesn't hook him, it's not really strong enough for a slash, so not a penalty, but what the hell does it have to do with hockey? If he is trying to raise the guy's stick to take the puck away, or slash on his stick to knock the puck off -- those I understand, but just stupid, mindless slapping of the stick on the thigh that *sometimes* gets called (either slashing or hooking) but usually does not -- that I can do without. If it's hot a hockey play, get rid of by calling it like they do fouls in basketball. You touch, you're gone. It would make for horrible hockey for a while, unfortunately.

    There are many others just like that, unfortunately.

    Why does a ref have to rely on a bunch of guys sitting in Toronto? We've got the technology to place a high-def monitor right there in the timekeeper's area for the ref to look at. He can communicate with the guys in the video booth to ask for different angles then have *HIS OWN* controls for fordward/rewind/pause and frame-by-frame advance. What they do right now, I'm surprised he doesn't have to crank up the phone like they did in WW-I.

    Several high-def cameras placed inside the crossbar, pointing straight down to the goal line, so there is no angle to worry about.

    Program every player's dimensions into a program so that they could, at any place on the ice, determine where the puck was touched. I'm sure it could be done.

    P.S. As far as it is to insinuate it, I don't believe there is bias against the Sens because of the refs' favorite team growing up. They are not kindergartners. That said, the refs can *definitely* form a bias against certain players or coaches.

    I believe the NHL *does* have a program in place for rating a referee's performance; it's just that they never talk about it or about the outcomes. We can only judge by seeing a particular referee appear (or not) in the post season.

    I think Kerry Fraser is lobbying for a job with his C'mon Ref blog.

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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by wprager on Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:54 pm

    tim1_2 wrote:Another thing I don't get is why Peel was reffing so many Ottawa games in a short period of time. Mixing it up should be a priority by the NHL to ensure "relationships" of the positive or negative nature don't develop.

    For those who didn't see it, Yost had a decent bit about the officiating (and other stuff):

    http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Travis-Yost/More-of-the-Same-in-Phoenix-Coyotes-Beat-Senators-3-2/134/41610

    Edit: The NFL show reviewing questionable calls is called "Official Review".

    I didn't realize (until I read the blog and the comments section) that it was Tim Peel who ejected Foligno for that "charging" call on Ellerby. I really can't understand how anyone would question that this guy has it in for the Senators or Foligno or both. It's either that, or he is a horribly incompetent to call an NHL game. There just isn't another explanation.

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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:57 pm

    wprager wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:Another thing I don't get is why Peel was reffing so many Ottawa games in a short period of time. Mixing it up should be a priority by the NHL to ensure "relationships" of the positive or negative nature don't develop.

    For those who didn't see it, Yost had a decent bit about the officiating (and other stuff):

    http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Travis-Yost/More-of-the-Same-in-Phoenix-Coyotes-Beat-Senators-3-2/134/41610

    Edit: The NFL show reviewing questionable calls is called "Official Review".

    I didn't realize (until I read the blog and the comments section) that it was Tim Peel who ejected Foligno for that "charging" call on Ellerby. I really can't understand how anyone would question that this guy has it in for the Senators or Foligno or both. It's either that, or he is a horribly incompetent to call an NHL game. There just isn't another explanation.

    Here's an excerpt from TeePee's Bio:

    Birthplace: Toronto, Ontario

    http://www.nhlofficials.com/previous_fo.asp?member_id=2071

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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by cash on Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:39 pm

    wprager wrote:I like the idea about keeping your right to challenge until you lose a challenge.

    I'd like to also eliminate more grey areas. There are so many of them, though. Tell me, what is the purpose of a player slapping an opposing player from behind with his stick. He doesn't hook him, it's not really strong enough for a slash, so not a penalty, but what the hell does it have to do with hockey? If he is trying to raise the guy's stick to take the puck away, or slash on his stick to knock the puck off -- those I understand, but just stupid, mindless slapping of the stick on the thigh that *sometimes* gets called (either slashing or hooking) but usually does not -- that I can do without. If it's hot a hockey play, get rid of by calling it like they do fouls in basketball. You touch, you're gone. It would make for horrible hockey for a while, unfortunately.

    There are many others just like that, unfortunately.
    The one I will never understand is when a player gets driven into the opposing goalie and its called a penalty or a goal is waived off or both. Its a team game and if one player on one team eliminates his teammates ability to do his job, well, tough... That shouldn't be held against the other team. It's complete nonsense.

    I also think if the defender goes sliding into the post and knocks it off its moorings when a goal is scored, the goal should count.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by wprager on Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:01 pm

    Going back to the Folilgno interference call. I just can't seem to be able to drop it. He skates in, with a defenseman on his back -- not that the defenseman pushed him into the crease, but he certainly was making it tough to avoid not going through it. But Foligno gets a shot off, and then he skates *through* the crease while the puck is in it.

    Here's the moment he makes the shot -- well out of the crease:



    After that the puck is in the crease and he is allowed to go in to get it, even though that's not what he was doing. In the next frame you can see him off-balance (because of contact from the defenseman a stride earlier, as well as because he is trying to avoid contact by skating through on one skate):



    I disagree with those who say the no-goal was fine but there should not have been a minor. This was a good goal.


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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:50 am

    Somebody posted a link and it sent me here? What the?!?!?! Ahhhhh! Ahhhhh!
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by tim1_2 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:59 am

    SeawaySensFan wrote:Somebody posted a link and it sent me here? What the?!?!?! Ahhhhh! Ahhhhh!

    Just trying to quelch the incessantly whiny Sens fanbase who clearly have a persecution complex.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:04 am

    tim1_2 wrote:
    SeawaySensFan wrote:Somebody posted a link and it sent me here? What the?!?!?! Ahhhhh! Ahhhhh!

    Just trying to quelch the incessantly whiny Sens fanbase who clearly have a persecution complex.

    You have done us all a great service, old friend. Cheers
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:05 am

    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by Hoags on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:08 am

    tim1_2 wrote:
    Just trying to quelch the incessantly whiny Sens fanbase who clearly have a persecution complex.

    Yep that's me I'm a whiny fan and the NHL clearly doesn't want Ottawa in the playoffs ever again, they still haven't lived down the low ratings from the Anaheim vs. Ottawa Stanley Cup Finals. Gotta make sure that never happens again, Bettman and Daly need to eat.

    Sarcasm
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by tim1_2 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:09 am

    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:
    SeawaySensFan wrote:Somebody posted a link and it sent me here? What the?!?!?! Ahhhhh! Ahhhhh!

    Just trying to quelch the incessantly whiny Sens fanbase who clearly have a persecution complex.

    You have done us all a great service, old friend. Cheers

    I know!!

    I was just thinking that a great idea for one of those recurring homemade YouTube shows would be some drunk guy going over all the bad calls made during the course of a week and trying to make sense of them. It'd be hysterical. I leave this idea open for anyone to steal.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by tim1_2 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:11 am

    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    What's-his-face over here has been saying that for decades.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:15 am

    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    What's-his-face over here has been saying that for decades.

    It's kind of hard to miss, TBH. I think it was 2 years ago that we had 6 games in which no penalties were called against the other team -- you had to add up the records of 3-4 other teams, meanwhile, to reach that same number of games in which no penalties were called against the opponent.

    That Dung is not just uncanny, it's anomalous AND blatant.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:16 am

    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    Is there even any actual talk of a conspiracy? Really? All I see is people legitimately concerned that some refs are biased as you said. I guess the easy way to discredit that is to call people conspiracy theorists. Laugh1
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by LeCaptain on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:17 am

    shabbs wrote:
    LeKid wrote:1 Challenge per team per game.
    I think we'll see this implemented one day. Just how they do it, not sure. Would be great for situations like that penalty shot or when there's a high stick that was actually from the guys team mate... they'll have to clearly define what the coach can and cannot challenge.

    I would start with just plays that result in goal/non goal.
    Penalties should not be challengeable at this point, that would be too much.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by tim1_2 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:19 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    What's-his-face over here has been saying that for decades.

    It's kind of hard to miss, TBH. I think it was 2 years ago that we had 6 games in which no penalties were called against the other team -- you had to add up the records of 3-4 other teams, meanwhile, to reach that same number of games in which no penalties were called against the opponent.

    That Dung is not just uncanny, it's anomalous AND blatant.

    Agreed. This will hopefully change over time. We need some serious stats compilation on this one.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:20 am

    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    Is there even any actual talk of a conspiracy? Really? All I see is people legitimately concerned that some refs are biased as you said. I guess the easy way to discredit that is to call people conspiracy theorists. Laugh1

    No, that's my point -- I'm trying to make a distinction between the two. People are acting like there's no difference, when there clearly is, and they're miscasting the argument.

    The real point being made is that there's a bias against the Sens, largely at an unconscious level, among refs who grew up as TOR or MTL fans. I'm trying to separate that point out from the suggestion of a conspiracy, which no one is arguing for, but which some people here are substituting in for or eliding with the real argument.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:22 am

    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    What's-his-face over here has been saying that for decades.

    It's kind of hard to miss, TBH. I think it was 2 years ago that we had 6 games in which no penalties were called against the other team -- you had to add up the records of 3-4 other teams, meanwhile, to reach that same number of games in which no penalties were called against the opponent.

    That Dung is not just uncanny, it's anomalous AND blatant.

    Agreed. This will hopefully change over time. We need some serious stats compilation on this one.

    I think that is an excellent suggestion. We need the raw, hard, statistical data. Anyone got some good links for compiling this sort of info?

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