Refereeing and what can be done

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    tim1_2
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by tim1_2 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:19 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    What's-his-face over here has been saying that for decades.

    It's kind of hard to miss, TBH. I think it was 2 years ago that we had 6 games in which no penalties were called against the other team -- you had to add up the records of 3-4 other teams, meanwhile, to reach that same number of games in which no penalties were called against the opponent.

    That Dung is not just uncanny, it's anomalous AND blatant.

    Agreed. This will hopefully change over time. We need some serious stats compilation on this one.

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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:20 am

    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    Is there even any actual talk of a conspiracy? Really? All I see is people legitimately concerned that some refs are biased as you said. I guess the easy way to discredit that is to call people conspiracy theorists. Laugh1

    No, that's my point -- I'm trying to make a distinction between the two. People are acting like there's no difference, when there clearly is, and they're miscasting the argument.

    The real point being made is that there's a bias against the Sens, largely at an unconscious level, among refs who grew up as TOR or MTL fans. I'm trying to separate that point out from the suggestion of a conspiracy, which no one is arguing for, but which some people here are substituting in for or eliding with the real argument.

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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:22 am

    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    What's-his-face over here has been saying that for decades.

    It's kind of hard to miss, TBH. I think it was 2 years ago that we had 6 games in which no penalties were called against the other team -- you had to add up the records of 3-4 other teams, meanwhile, to reach that same number of games in which no penalties were called against the opponent.

    That Dung is not just uncanny, it's anomalous AND blatant.

    Agreed. This will hopefully change over time. We need some serious stats compilation on this one.

    I think that is an excellent suggestion. We need the raw, hard, statistical data. Anyone got some good links for compiling this sort of info?
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:26 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    Is there even any actual talk of a conspiracy? Really? All I see is people legitimately concerned that some refs are biased as you said. I guess the easy way to discredit that is to call people conspiracy theorists. Laugh1

    No, that's my point -- I'm trying to make a distinction between the two. People are acting like there's no difference, when there clearly is, and they're miscasting the argument.

    The real point being made is that there's a bias against the Sens, largely at an unconscious level, among refs who grew up as TOR or MTL fans. I'm trying to separate that point out from the suggestion of a conspiracy, which no one is arguing for, but which some people here are substituting in for or eliding with the real argument.

    Some of the biggest culprits are our own local media. I honestly think they're too stupid and/or lazy to make the distinction. Here we are as fans suggesting that we look at some stats and data to get a better handle on the truth. That should be their Cussing job.
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    tim1_2
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by tim1_2 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:29 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    I think that is an excellent suggestion. We need the raw, hard, statistical data. Anyone got some good links for compiling this sort of info?

    I looked half-heartedly, but didn't find anything useful. The game logs at NHL.com list the officials for each game, but with the 2-referee system, it becomes impossible to know which ref made calls and which ref didn't. I'm sure you could, with a large enough sample size, come to some conclusions about which refs call more or less against certain teams, but we're talking about a full-time job for about a month. I think the only real way to compile stats would be to start keeping them ourselves, but I'm too lazy to actually DO anything about a problem, I just want to complain about it.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:32 am

    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    I think that is an excellent suggestion. We need the raw, hard, statistical data. Anyone got some good links for compiling this sort of info?

    I looked half-heartedly, but didn't find anything useful. The game logs at NHL.com list the officials for each game, but with the 2-referee system, it becomes impossible to know which ref made calls and which ref didn't. I'm sure you could, with a large enough sample size, come to some conclusions about which refs call more or less against certain teams, but we're talking about a full-time job for about a month. I think the only real way to compile stats would be to start keeping them ourselves, but I'm too lazy to actually DO anything about a problem, I just want to complain about it.

    How do you know there is a problem without the data? Sarcasm Vertigo
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:35 am

    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    I think that is an excellent suggestion. We need the raw, hard, statistical data. Anyone got some good links for compiling this sort of info?

    I looked half-heartedly, but didn't find anything useful. The game logs at NHL.com list the officials for each game, but with the 2-referee system, it becomes impossible to know which ref made calls and which ref didn't. I'm sure you could, with a large enough sample size, come to some conclusions about which refs call more or less against certain teams, but we're talking about a full-time job for about a month. I think the only real way to compile stats would be to start keeping them ourselves, but I'm too lazy to actually DO anything about a problem, I just want to complain about it.

    How do you know there is a problem without the data? Sarcasm Vertigo

    What we have right now is the beginnings of a thesis. To see if that thesis holds water, and to complicate and support it, you need hard data. Smile
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:59 am

    I was just pouring through everything I can find at NHL.com, and here are some findings that the stats show:

    Penalties Against Stats:
    -- total minors, 228, 29th in the league
    -- total majors, 38, tied for 29th in the league
    -- total penalties, 282, 29th in the league
    -- total PIMs, 754, 28th in the league
    -- total bench minors, 7, tied for 23rd in the league
    -- total PIM/game, 14.2, 28th in the league

    Shorthanded Stats:
    -- times short-handed, 211, 30th in the league
    -- total time spend on the PK, 143+ mins, 19th in the league
    -- PP time minus PK time, -12+ mins, 25th in the league


    Power play Stats:
    -- 179 PP opportunities, 12th in the league (but: tied for 23rd at home, & tied for 4th on the road, league wide)
    -- total time on the PP, 291 mins, also tied for 12th in the league
    -- PP opportunities, by period (and this is telling): 1st, 48, 26th in the league; 2nd, 72, 6th in the league; 3rd, 59, tied for 6th; OT, 2, tied for 7th.
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    tim1_2
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by tim1_2 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:48 pm

    Here's some stats in this 6th Sens post:

    http://www.the6thsens.com/2012-articles/january/kerryfrasersenatorsfanstinfoilhatbrigade939319.html

    So I guess we can call off the hitmen.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by shabbs on Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:08 pm

    C'mon Ref looks at the Ott-Bos game...

    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=386676

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    tim1_2
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by tim1_2 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:19 pm

    shabbs wrote:C'mon Ref looks at the Ott-Bos game...

    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=386676


    Are you guys just waking up? C'mon, that blog is so two and a half hours ago.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by wprager on Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:28 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you... Vertigo

    Talk of an active conspiracy is, if you ask me, silly, but talk of a long-engrained bias against the Sens among refs who grew up fans of TOR or MTL is not far fetched at all.

    Who told you that? What did they look like? Were they driving a late-model green sedan with tinted windows?


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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by wprager on Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:37 pm

    tim1_2 wrote:
    shabbs wrote:C'mon Ref looks at the Ott-Bos game...

    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=386676


    Are you guys just waking up? C'mon, that blog is so two and a half hours ago.

    Some of us work. Just read it. All I can say is if Neil dove on the cross check from Kelly then so did Boychuk on the cross check from Spezza. Yes, Spezza was frustrated and yes, that was a cross check, but just the physics of how quickly Boychuk went down and the with of the stick shaft, the pressure per square inch must have been tremendous. Bone crushing. I want to see the crushed bones.


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    tim1_2
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by tim1_2 on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:44 am

    wprager wrote:
    All I can say is if Neil dove on the cross check from Kelly then so did Boychuk on the cross check from Spezza. Yes, Spezza was frustrated and yes, that was a cross check, but just the physics of how quickly Boychuk went down and the with of the stick shaft, the pressure per square inch must have been tremendous. Bone crushing. I want to see the crushed bones.

    Neil was definitely embelleshing to draw a penalty. I love Neil, but this is something he does from time to time to try and sell a penalty. Sometimes it actually works, too, so I'm all for it.

    The Spezza call at the end of the game is irrelevant, but was probably more deserving of a penalty than the hit on Neil.

    All this said, the one non-call I had a problem with was the Lucic hit on Condra. It was so blatantly worthy of a boarding call, and took place pretty much right where the puck was. One of the two refs MUST have seen it, and just decided SOMEHOW that it wasn't a penalty. Inexplicable.
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    Re: Refereeing and what can be done

    Post by wprager on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:29 pm

    They're scared of Lucic?


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