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General Hockey Talk - Injuries, signings, factoids + other news from around the league

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Riprock


All-Star
All-Star
Wow, you guys are missing the whole point. This is all in response to SSF saying "see what tanking is worth".

So I asked if Ottawa would be different with those two instead of Edmonton, hypothetically.

Edmonton doesn't have Spezza Alfredsson, and Karlsson.

OBVIOUSLY there would be changes that can't be predicted as a result of changing history LOL. That was never my argument.

The argument was: is tanking actually not worthwhile, or is it dependent on the team? And SSF used tanking, when Edmonton is not tanking. What is happening is a simple result of 1/30 teams having to finish last, and they are that 1/30, for what could be the 3rd straight season. Reason is they haven't improved the team as a whole rather they picked up players that are and ill be part of the future.

Riprock


All-Star
All-Star
SpezDispenser wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
Riprock wrote:Still early in his career in Ottawa, but Turris hasn't shown anything close to what Hall and Nugent-Hopkins have.

Those guys are very good players. They would be just as good on Ottawa. If you disagree, you might as well disagree that Stamkos or Tavares wouldn't be good in Ottawa.

What you're not acknowledging is the potential cost, in a variety of other parts of the organization, that comes with losing -- i.e., losing culture, which is bad
for bringing in FAs, for re-signing UFAs/RFAs, and your kids generally. It's not just "RNH or Zibanejad," for instance, when we look back on the last few months of the 2011 season. Does Anderson sign with us if we go in the tank? Do the kids like Greening, Butler, Condra, Smith, etc., develop like the did? Does Spezza and Alfie want to stay with us if we're a loser? What does losing long term do for a star RFA/UFA like Karlsson, when he hits those points? Or for trying to attract a guy like Parise this year?

If you ask me, fighting through that last half of the season last year as a team -- getting Anderson, developing the kids, coming out stronger as a group -- is more than enough to make up for the difference between, say, Zibanejad and RNH. There's nothing better for a franchise across the board than WINNING, point finale. Chasing after horizons in the form of high draft picks is a 50/50 endeavour at best -- for every PIT and CHI, there's also a FLA and CLB -- whereas winning is always a win/win proposition that does more for a team than any one (potential star) player could ever do.

/topic (IMO).

Ooops, I ought to stop then.

SeawaySensFan


Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Riprock wrote:Wow, you guys are missing the whole point. This is all in response to SSF saying "see what tanking is worth".

So I asked if Ottawa would be different with those two instead of Edmonton, hypothetically.

Edmonton doesn't have Spezza Alfredsson, and Karlsson.

OBVIOUSLY there would be changes that can't be predicted as a result of changing history LOL. That was never my argument.

The argument was: is tanking actually not worthwhile, or is it dependent on the team? And SSF used tanking, when Edmonton is not tanking. What is happening is a simple result of 1/30 teams having to finish last, and they are that 1/30, for what could be the 3rd straight season. Reason is they haven't improved the team as a whole rather they picked up players that are and ill be part of the future.

Obviously Edmonton is not tanking. They just suck. But whether you suck or tank, you're somewhere in the same area of the standings, aren't you. So tanking is just about as worthwhile as sucking.

I can't summarize my point any better than that. Me lunch now.

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star
It's not worthless, it has it's worse. If Pittsburgh didn't have Malkin, Staal and Fleury, they'd be nowhere near as good as they are when they lucked out and got Crosby. Again, hypothetical, things could have been different.

I think it is unlikely that you'd see a different bottom 5 every year... teams stay there often for a few seasons.

tim1_2

tim1_2
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Edmonton is not finishing last because 1/30 teams has to finish last. Edmonton is finishing last because they are a poorly run franchise that happens to be located in a god-forsaken hell-hole. It's unfortunate, but I'm getting sick of hearing about how "stacked" they are for the future, when the future won't be much better unless they find a way to start actually getting players to WANT to play there.

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star
Well, it does have to do with the obvious fact that 1/30 of the NHL teams must finish last, and it is statistically likely to be the worst team. Edmonton has had that distinction for a while.

They do have a few players who are very very very likely going to continue to be as good or better than they are now.

As far as getting other players to play there, welcome to what a lot of teams have to go through. They might be at the bottom of a lot of players priorities, but that can't really be blamed on the team. As you said, it's the city. The team has good coaching staff, and a good owner. Good fans too, and a rich history.

tim1_2

tim1_2
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Riprock wrote:Well, it does have to do with the obvious fact that 1/30 of the NHL teams must finish last, and it is statistically likely to be the worst team. Edmonton has had that distinction for a while.

They do have a few players who are very very very likely going to continue to be as good or better than they are now.

As far as getting other players to play there, welcome to what a lot of teams have to go through. They might be at the bottom of a lot of players priorities, but that can't really be blamed on the team. As you said, it's the city. The team has good coaching staff, and a good owner. Good fans too, and a rich history.

Why do you think they have a good coaching staff? Are they overachieving?

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
All-Star
All-Star
SpezDispenser wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
Riprock wrote:Still early in his career in Ottawa, but Turris hasn't shown anything close to what Hall and Nugent-Hopkins have.

Those guys are very good players. They would be just as good on Ottawa. If you disagree, you might as well disagree that Stamkos or Tavares wouldn't be good in Ottawa.

What you're not acknowledging is the potential cost, in a variety of other parts of the organization, that comes with losing -- i.e., losing culture, which is bad
for bringing in FAs, for re-signing UFAs/RFAs, and your kids generally. It's not just "RNH or Zibanejad," for instance, when we look back on the last few months of the 2011 season. Does Anderson sign with us if we go in the tank? Do the kids like Greening, Butler, Condra, Smith, etc., develop like the did? Does Spezza and Alfie want to stay with us if we're a loser? What does losing long term do for a star RFA/UFA like Karlsson, when he hits those points? Or for trying to attract a guy like Parise this year?

If you ask me, fighting through that last half of the season last year as a team -- getting Anderson, developing the kids, coming out stronger as a group -- is more than enough to make up for the difference between, say, Zibanejad and RNH. There's nothing better for a franchise across the board than WINNING, point finale. Chasing after horizons in the form of high draft picks is a 50/50 endeavour at best -- for every PIT and CHI, there's also a FLA and CLB -- whereas winning is always a win/win proposition that does more for a team than any one (potential star) player could ever do.

/topic (IMO).

How it is off topic? Great players are great players, and it would be great to have them with us. We'd be a better team if, everything else put aside, we had Crosby and Malkin; they'd be just as good for us as they are for the Pens. Ditto for Hall and RNH.

But what the hell is the point of making that point? Of course it's true. All things else being equal, it would be fantastic to have the best young players on our team. The point is that qualifier -- "all things else being equal." To have drafted them, you had to be at a very different (and much lower) point, organizationally, then the Sens have been in a long time. Losing comes at a high cost, and it's at best a 50/50 proposition that those potentially great young players actually become really great.

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
No man, that means end topic - as in, that's the precise point and nothing more needs to be said.

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
All-Star
All-Star
SpezDispenser wrote:No man, that means end topic - as in, that's the precise point and nothing more needs to be said.

Ah, LOL. Oops! Carry on....

Coffee!

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
Riprock wrote:Ooops, I ought to stop then.

No stopping necessary, but that's the precise point that's so important in this NHL. We won in Bingo, we transferred a lot of the winning ways and attitudes to the NHL and we're having success. If you go on losing too long, kids won't even know what it takes.

SensHulk

SensHulk
All-Star
All-Star
Mike green suspended 3 games. Deserved but I would welcome a shanahan/yzerman connection joke

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Rags lost to the Hawks last night... that's three in a row and 4 of their last 5.

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
What's wrong with OV?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/capitals/alex-ovechkin-whats-wrong-with-the-washington-capitals-superstar/2012/03/09/gIQAt5TT2R_story.html

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star
Another point is that a tean like Pittsburgh that was a bottom team for 4 years went from bottom to up in a couple of years. I don't think Edmonton will be as fast, but my point is Ottawa could have with the team they already had.

Ev

Ev
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Riprock wrote:Another point is that a tean like Pittsburgh that was a bottom team for 4 years went from bottom to up in a couple of years. I don't think Edmonton will be as fast, but my point is Ottawa could have with the team they already had.

Because of Crosby and Malkin whom the Sens don't have...and a legit #1 goalie they drafted 1st overall.

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Big Ev wrote:
Riprock wrote:Another point is that a tean like Pittsburgh that was a bottom team for 4 years went from bottom to up in a couple of years. I don't think Edmonton will be as fast, but my point is Ottawa could have with the team they already had.

Because of Crosby and Malkin whom the Sens don't have...and a legit #1 goalie they drafted 1st overall.
Worked out nicely for them eh... Fleury, Malkin, Crosby... almost too nicely... Wink

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Crosby Return Part II Watch:

Josh Yohe: Crosby not skating on regular line at practice which would seem to indicate he isn't playing tomorrow.

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