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shabbs


Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Leafs have apparently made an offer for Bernier...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/trades/2012/07/17/toronto_maple_leafs_report_jonathan_bernier_los_angeles_kings/

No mention of what was in the offer...

So much for not wanting an "unproven" goalie eh? Wink

NEELY


Mod
Mod
Bernier is NOT a #1 guy. Too small and just not good enough. Can't imagine what he would be like in Toronto... he totally fell apart as Canada's goaltender at the WJC.

Hoags


All-Star
All-Star
NEELY wrote:Bernier is NOT a #1 guy. Too small and just not good enough. Can't imagine what he would be like in Toronto... he totally fell apart as Canada's goaltender at the WJC.

Is size really that much of a disadvantage ?

Wamsley mentioned in his interview that Bishop's size is more of a disadvantage than an advantage, although there are positives to being that big.

I can't see the Leafs getting Bernier, supposedly LA wants a 1st round pick in return.

NEELY


Mod
Mod
Hoags wrote:
NEELY wrote:Bernier is NOT a #1 guy. Too small and just not good enough. Can't imagine what he would be like in Toronto... he totally fell apart as Canada's goaltender at the WJC.

Is size really that much of a disadvantage ?

Wamsley mentioned in his interview that Bishop's size is more of a disadvantage than an advantage, although there are positives to being that big.

I can't see the Leafs getting Bernier, supposedly LA wants a 1st round pick in return.

Being under 6' is a disadvantage for sure. I don't buy the "size doesn't matter" thing because over the last 10-15 years I can't think of any goaltender under 6 foot that has had a really long term impact. Irbe maybe?

Fact is almost every goaltender plays the butterfly is some shape or form and unless your angles are near perfect, you need a somewhat big body. 6'2 is probably average for a goaltender.

Any goaltender under 6' is going to struggle to be consistent. Any kind of hole in their game or loss of confidence kills them. Only guy I see maybe being a starter one day that is under that mark is Enroth.

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
If LA wants a first pick back, they should deal with Columbus then and get their own 1st round pick back that they gave to them. They have said that Columbus is also in the mix with LA and Bernier.

If the Leafs cough up a 1st for Bernier... heh heh... I will laugh.

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
I think he's being unfairly judged here. Who cares about a showing at the WJ? He did really well in the AHL and has had some great starts in the NHL, I think he'd be really good to tandem with someone and see if he can steal the starting job - a la Lindback.

I think Columbus should absolutely be looking at him to tandem with Bob. Although they'd have to figure out what to do with Mason I guess.

NEELY


Mod
Mod
SpezDispenser wrote:I think he's being unfairly judged here. Who cares about a showing at the WJ? He did really well in the AHL and has had some great starts in the NHL, I think he'd be really good to tandem with someone and see if he can steal the starting job - a la Lindback.

I think Columbus should absolutely be looking at him to tandem with Bob. Although they'd have to figure out what to do with Mason I guess.

How many goalies are really good in the AHL? Had some great teams in front of him too. In LA he's been meh, not bad, not great.

Whatever team gives up anything of real value for Bernier will regret it. Too small.

As for the WJC, he cracked under pressure. Yah, it might not be the be all and end all but you can't point to anything he has done and say "yah, that's the guy that will be solid for a long time".

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
NEELY wrote:
Hoags wrote:
NEELY wrote:Bernier is NOT a #1 guy. Too small and just not good enough. Can't imagine what he would be like in Toronto... he totally fell apart as Canada's goaltender at the WJC.

Is size really that much of a disadvantage ?

Wamsley mentioned in his interview that Bishop's size is more of a disadvantage than an advantage, although there are positives to being that big.

I can't see the Leafs getting Bernier, supposedly LA wants a 1st round pick in return.

Being under 6' is a disadvantage for sure. I don't buy the "size doesn't matter" thing because over the last 10-15 years I can't think of any goaltender under 6 foot that has had a really long term impact. Irbe maybe?

Fact is almost every goaltender plays the butterfly is some shape or form and unless your angles are near perfect, you need a somewhat big body. 6'2 is probably average for a goaltender.

Any goaltender under 6' is going to struggle to be consistent. Any kind of hole in their game or loss of confidence kills them. Only guy I see maybe being a starter one day that is under that mark is Enroth.

Thomas is 5'11". Plus if you want to talk big, I don't really consider a 6'0 - 6'1" goalie anywhere near huge. 6'3" and over, sure, that's size, but there is not significant difference between, say, 5'11 and 6'1". And there have been plenty in that range.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star
NEELY wrote:
Hoags wrote:
NEELY wrote:Bernier is NOT a #1 guy. Too small and just not good enough. Can't imagine what he would be like in Toronto... he totally fell apart as Canada's goaltender at the WJC.

Is size really that much of a disadvantage ?

Wamsley mentioned in his interview that Bishop's size is more of a disadvantage than an advantage, although there are positives to being that big.

I can't see the Leafs getting Bernier, supposedly LA wants a 1st round pick in return.

Being under 6' is a disadvantage for sure. I don't buy the "size doesn't matter" thing because over the last 10-15 years I can't think of any goaltender under 6 foot that has had a really long term impact. Irbe maybe?

Fact is almost every goaltender plays the butterfly is some shape or form and unless your angles are near perfect, you need a somewhat big body. 6'2 is probably average for a goaltender.

Any goaltender under 6' is going to struggle to be consistent. Any kind of hole in their game or loss of confidence kills them. Only guy I see maybe being a starter one day that is under that mark is Enroth.

- Tim Thomas, 5'11''
-Tomas Vokoun, 5'11''
-Manny Legace, 5'10''
-Jose Theodore, 5'11''
- Dominik Hasek, 5'11''
-Mike Richter, 5'11''
-Jaroslav Halak, 5'11''
-Marty Turco, 5'11''
-Vesa Toskala, 5'10''
-Chris Osgood, 5'10''

Have to be careful though, because some goalies might have their height exaggerated on the NHL sites.

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
NEELY wrote:
SpezDispenser wrote:I think he's being unfairly judged here. Who cares about a showing at the WJ? He did really well in the AHL and has had some great starts in the NHL, I think he'd be really good to tandem with someone and see if he can steal the starting job - a la Lindback.

I think Columbus should absolutely be looking at him to tandem with Bob. Although they'd have to figure out what to do with Mason I guess.

How many goalies are really good in the AHL? Had some great teams in front of him too. In LA he's been meh, not bad, not great.

Whatever team gives up anything of real value for Bernier will regret it. Too small.

As for the WJC, he cracked under pressure. Yah, it might not be the be all and end all but you can't point to anything he has done and say "yah, that's the guy that will be solid for a long time".

He's not a stud, again I'd put him in the same boat as Lindback (better though, but still unproven), but he's not chopped liver. He's played the equivalent of half a season and posted a .913 and a .908 (and a .957 in a few appearances previous).

He had a beautiful 60 game season in the AHL where he posted a .936 as well - and while the AHL isn't the NHL by any stretch, that can't be overlooked.

You might be right, or I might be right, but it's not a devastating gamble to take - as long as you have the 2nd part of the tandem in place.

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
With that said, I'd meet with Hasek and see if he's actually still got 'it', because man...when that guy was on, he was a clinic. Now...I wonder if he'd need a clinic after a game or two.

He's be a nice fit in Columbus, I'd have him checked out, observe him in practice, then offer him a contract. I don't give a Diddle who laughed at me.

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star
Hasek should be looking for a goalie coaching job, not a goalie job.

Not that you can actually teach that method...

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
Riprock wrote:Hasek should be looking for a goalie coaching job, not a goalie job.

Not that you can actually teach that method...

Haven't you learned never to count Hasek out?

SeawaySensFan

SeawaySensFan
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
SpezDispenser wrote:
Riprock wrote:Hasek should be looking for a goalie coaching job, not a goalie job.

Not that you can actually teach that method...

Haven't you learned never to count Hasek out?

I learned you can't count on him either.

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
SeawaySensFan wrote:
SpezDispenser wrote:
Riprock wrote:Hasek should be looking for a goalie coaching job, not a goalie job.

Not that you can actually teach that method...

Haven't you learned never to count Hasek out?

I learned you can't count on him either.

It's not really like Columbus will need him for the playoffs though.

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
Riprock wrote:
NEELY wrote:
Hoags wrote:
NEELY wrote:Bernier is NOT a #1 guy. Too small and just not good enough. Can't imagine what he would be like in Toronto... he totally fell apart as Canada's goaltender at the WJC.

Is size really that much of a disadvantage ?

Wamsley mentioned in his interview that Bishop's size is more of a disadvantage than an advantage, although there are positives to being that big.

I can't see the Leafs getting Bernier, supposedly LA wants a 1st round pick in return.

Being under 6' is a disadvantage for sure. I don't buy the "size doesn't matter" thing because over the last 10-15 years I can't think of any goaltender under 6 foot that has had a really long term impact. Irbe maybe?

Fact is almost every goaltender plays the butterfly is some shape or form and unless your angles are near perfect, you need a somewhat big body. 6'2 is probably average for a goaltender.

Any goaltender under 6' is going to struggle to be consistent. Any kind of hole in their game or loss of confidence kills them. Only guy I see maybe being a starter one day that is under that mark is Enroth.

- Tim Thomas, 5'11''
-Tomas Vokoun, 5'11''
-Manny Legace, 5'10''
-Jose Theodore, 5'11''
- Dominik Hasek, 5'11''
-Mike Richter, 5'11''
-Jaroslav Halak, 5'11''
-Marty Turco, 5'11''
-Vesa Toskala, 5'10''
-Chris Osgood, 5'10''

Have to be careful though, because some goalies might have their height exaggerated on the NHL sites.

In fairness to NEELY, some of those fall outside the relevant period. Yes, I know that he said 10-15 years, but that probably should have been more like 5-10. Also some of those goalies didn't put up exceptional numbers (wins, maybe, because of playing behind great teams).


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

NEELY


Mod
Mod
Thomas is for sure an exception to that rule and he doesn't exactly play the typical style. Hasek is 6'1 btw.

Theodore has been a backup going on 5 years now and had one great season. Hardly consistant.

Richter bests years were the early 90's.

Turco got run out of the league because in part he is too small. Toskala same deal.

Halak had a good playoff run, hasn't really done a lot before or after that.

Look at the most consistant goalies over the past 5-10 years. All except Thomas are over 6'0. Ludavist, Brodure, Rinne, Luongo, Miller.

Size matters when you are a goaltender.

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
Quincey re-signed by Detroit. 3.55 and 4 million on a 2 year deal.

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