NHL CBA Talk

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    NEELY
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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:11 pm

    They won't be going on strike, or lock out, or w/e. The worst case scenario is the season starts a little late, that's it. People are starting to make a mountain out of a mole hill right now.

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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by Hoags on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:05 pm

    NEELY wrote:They won't be going on strike, or lock out, or w/e. The worst case scenario is the season starts a little late, that's it. People are starting to make a mountain out of a mole hill right now.

    NHL wants concessions from players to fix the problems with poor teams and ever rising salary cap.

    The NHLPA will argue that all we need is more revenue sharing, rich teams like the Leafs are NOT going to agree to give more money to poor teams.

    Why would they resolve this anytime soon ? The players are not going to accept a rollback like the NHL wants. They can't lower the cap/floor without rolling back salaries or a lot of teams will be suddenly over the cap.

    Donald Fehr isn't going to roll over here, this isn't like when Goodenow and Saskin ran the NHLPA, he caused an MLB lockout to get what he wants, he'll lose an NHL season if he has to.

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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:26 pm

    Hoags wrote:
    NEELY wrote:They won't be going on strike, or lock out, or w/e. The worst case scenario is the season starts a little late, that's it. People are starting to make a mountain out of a mole hill right now.

    NHL wants concessions from players to fix the problems with poor teams and ever rising salary cap.

    The NHLPA will argue that all we need is more revenue sharing, rich teams like the Leafs are NOT going to agree to give more money to poor teams.

    Why would they resolve this anytime soon ? The players are not going to accept a rollback like the NHL wants. They can't lower the cap/floor without rolling back salaries or a lot of teams will be suddenly over the cap.

    Donald Fehr isn't going to roll over here, this isn't like when Goodenow and Saskin ran the NHLPA, he caused an MLB lockout to get what he wants, he'll lose an NHL season if he has to.

    Apples and oranges
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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by Ev on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:35 pm

    like Neely said it isn't really a big deal and certainly not comparable to the MLB strike. There is no big issue like a salary cap that they are negotiating. Once they give in their proposal, we'll see where the two sides stand, and they should get it done soon after.

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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by sandysensfan on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:39 pm

    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    sandysensfan wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:Owners are also greedy and even with the roll back, should the players eventually cave, the owners will see a major loss in revenues and loss of momentum. It's also terrible for the league to have lock-outs in two consecutive contracts especially for the 4th (arguably lower) major league sport. This will also be the third work stoppage since Bettman took over should it come to that.

    I believe it would be 3 consecutive contracts -- isn't it?

    Not sure about that. The initial one was a strike by the players in 95 then the lock-out was 2004/05 right. Was there only one contract from 95 to 2004?

    According to Wikipedia... there was a lockout in 1994/95 -- they played 48 games that season. The next CBA was 2004/05 - where they played no games.. now this one. If they can't agree on a new CBA or agree to play under the old one.. then that would be 3 work stoppages in a row.

    But you see... the whole problem is the Owners.. or the same few that spend like a drunken sailor.. then cry salaries too high and contracts too long.. yet they go ahead and do it anyway.

    The need a new CBA to control the renegade owners.. and that fixes everything.

    But Fehr scares me... he is a tough negotiator who won't settle... so there is the possibility of a full season with no hockey.

    Then the league loses big time. There are some fans (Cdn fans as well) that will have had enough of this greed and will not come back. It may take 10 yrs to get back to where they are now.. So who wins then? Nobody. There would be a lot of players looking for work as teams will fold especially if their fans don't come back.

    Both sides risk much if there is ANY kind of a lockout/strike... I certainly hope they are smart enough to realize that. Both sides may say they don't want a work stoppage.. but they have to mean it.

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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:55 pm

    Big Ev wrote:like Neely said it isn't really a big deal and certainly not comparable to the MLB strike. There is no big issue like a salary cap that they are negotiating. Once they give in their proposal, we'll see where the two sides stand, and they should get it done soon after.

    Exactly. Not to mention the fact the Fehr actually negotiated a couple more CBA's with MLBPA and MLB after that strike just no one hears about it because he does thing very quietly. Either way, this is not the same as the last time, or the MLB strike, or w/e else.

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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by spader on Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:02 pm

    NEELY wrote:
    Big Ev wrote:like Neely said it isn't really a big deal and certainly not comparable to the MLB strike. There is no big issue like a salary cap that they are negotiating. Once they give in their proposal, we'll see where the two sides stand, and they should get it done soon after.

    Exactly. Not to mention the fact the Fehr actually negotiated a couple more CBA's with MLBPA and MLB after that strike just no one hears about it because he does thing very quietly. Either way, this is not the same as the last time, or the MLB strike, or w/e else.


    That's the biggest thing, I think. The last negotiation required a total shift in the financial culture of the league. They tore the economic model down and rebuilt it. This one's more of a tweak than anything.

    It's much easier to be optimistic this time.

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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by NEELY on Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:18 pm

    Last time everyone knew there was a lockout coming. Owners got what they wanted.
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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by Hoags on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:02 pm

    Big Ev wrote:like Neely said it isn't really a big deal and certainly not comparable to the MLB strike. There is no big issue like a salary cap that they are negotiating. Once they give in their proposal, we'll see where the two sides stand, and they should get it done soon after.

    Please explain to me WHY the players would agree again to a salary rollback ? They might lower the player's share of revenue closer to 50% but why would the players give up a lot more than that ?? Fehr will propose more revenue sharing which will never happen.

    I don't think there is a huge issue like a salary cap involved but once again the owners want to take from the players.

    They got bent over last time by accepting the salary cap and rollbacks etc. Why would they agree to even a limited version of the NHL initial proposal ??

    Years from now when the CBA is up for renewal again, the owners will once again ask for concessions from the players.

    This is the cycle that Fehr is trying to change. The owners want the players to give up large sums of money to fix financial problems in the NHL that are of their own doing (teams in locations that will never make any money). I'm sure there's some Hollywood accounting involved, the Sens technically lose money every year but Melnyk profits from owning SBP. So crying that teams are losing money isn't technically that accurate, although the rising cap will make it harder and harder.

    NEELY wrote:Last time everyone knew there was a lockout coming. Owners got what they wanted.

    Exactly and now it's the same thing all over again, the owners want lots from the players.

    We'll see what happens when NHLPA gives a counterproposal but I don't see much common ground right now.
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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by wprager on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:21 pm

    Hoags wrote:
    NEELY wrote:They won't be going on strike, or lock out, or w/e. The worst case scenario is the season starts a little late, that's it. People are starting to make a mountain out of a mole hill right now.

    NHL wants concessions from players to fix the problems with poor teams and ever rising salary cap.

    The NHLPA will argue that all we need is more revenue sharing, rich teams like the Leafs are NOT going to agree to give more money to poor teams.

    Why would they resolve this anytime soon ? The players are not going to accept a rollback like the NHL wants. They can't lower the cap/floor without rolling back salaries or a lot of teams will be suddenly over the cap.

    Donald Fehr isn't going to roll over here, this isn't like when Goodenow and Saskin ran the NHLPA, he caused an MLB lockout to get what he wants, he'll lose an NHL season if he has to.

    I think any *significant* drop in the percentage of revenue that goes to players would have to be introduced gradually.


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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by Hoags on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:28 pm

    wprager wrote:
    I think any *significant* drop in the percentage of revenue that goes to players would have to be introduced gradually.

    Absolutely, I expect 50-53%.

    Even so any major change in the salary cap/floor is going to require a salary rollback(or many teams will be over) and I do not expect the NHLPA to agreee to another rollback. Even so the owners want to give less money to the players and keep more for themselves. That's the bottom line, same with redefining what hockey related revenue means. They want the players to take a smaller slice of pie while the shrinking the entire pie as well.

    Fehr was specifically hired so the NHLPA doesn't get :rp: like the last negotiation, he might not cause a lockout but there's no way he's going to give up that much of his members money away to fix problems (that he'll argue) are the NHL's problem not the players.

    I figure he'll propose more revenue sharing or a soft cap/luxury tax which will be rejected and the games will begin but we'll see. The NHL had over $3B in revenues and yet is crying poor and demanding money from the players.

    I am not optimistic at all.
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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by wprager on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:35 pm

    Hoags wrote:
    Big Ev wrote:like Neely said it isn't really a big deal and certainly not comparable to the MLB strike. There is no big issue like a salary cap that they are negotiating. Once they give in their proposal, we'll see where the two sides stand, and they should get it done soon after.

    Please explain to me WHY the players would agree again to a salary rollback ? They might lower the player's share of revenue closer to 50% but why would the players give up a lot more than that ?? Fehr will propose more revenue sharing which will never happen.

    I don't think there is a huge issue like a salary cap involved but once again the owners want to take from the players.

    They got bent over last time by accepting the salary cap and rollbacks etc. Why would they agree to even a limited version of the NHL initial proposal ??

    Years from now when the CBA is up for renewal again, the owners will once again ask for concessions from the players.

    This is the cycle that Fehr is trying to change. The owners want the players to give up large sums of money to fix financial problems in the NHL that are of their own doing (teams in locations that will never make any money). I'm sure there's some Hollywood accounting involved, the Sens technically lose money every year but Melnyk profits from owning SBP. So crying that teams are losing money isn't technically that accurate, although the rising cap will make it harder and harder.

    NEELY wrote:Last time everyone knew there was a lockout coming. Owners got what they wanted.

    Exactly and now it's the same thing all over again, the owners want lots from the players.

    We'll see what happens when NHLPA gives a counterproposal but I don't see much common ground right now.

    57% is ridiculous and everyone knows that. They probably won't be able to drop it to 50% immediately but it certainly needs to be addressed, and it will be. I'm pretty sure the players never dreamed that, after giving up 24%, their salaries would get an 80% raise over the next 7 years (going strictly by the cap numbers). That's a CAGR of almost 9%. And the max salary went from $7.8M to over $14M, yet nobody is making that much (well, not averaged out over the length of the contract), so you know it wasn't just the stars that got the majority of the raises. So after taking the 24% cut, they are still nearly 38% higher than they were before the cut.


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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:26 pm

    A Lock-Out for every contract is a terrible record for the Commish and an embarrasment for this league.

    I truly hope that isn't the route this ends up taking.


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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by sandysensfan on Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:50 pm

    Go to the NHL Facebook page and let your voice be heard. It's about time the FANS have their say... enough is enough.
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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by Hoags on Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:10 pm

    Cap'n Clutch wrote:A Lock-Out for every contract is a terrible record for the Commish and an embarrasment for this league.

    I truly hope that isn't the route this ends up taking.

    This would be the 3rd work stoppage under Bettman.

    He didn't care that a season was lost last time around, I doubt he cares this time around.

    His job is to get the maximum amount of money for the owners/BOG. If there's a lockout or delayed season, they SAVE money.

    He has ZERO incentive to get a deal done before the season starts, except for the fans' sake, except we all know he doesn't care about them.
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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by shabbs on Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:15 pm

    A shortened season at the very least seems inevitable now....

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=402741
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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by Hoags on Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:33 pm

    shabbs wrote:A shortened season at the very least seems inevitable now....

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=402741

    Players will strike if they continue with no CBA signed, they did it in 1992 and Fehr did it in the MLB.

    Not that I agree with it, but they HAVE to lock them out otherwise the players get a significant advantage.

    They can drag out negotiations until the end of the season and when they have most of their salaries paid they can strike since they don't get paid in the playoffs but that's when owners are counting on playoff revenue.
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    Re: NHL CBA Talk

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:41 pm

    The players would happily continue playing. When the contract expires they just keep going with status quo until a new deal is reached.



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