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91NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:25 pm

sandysensfan


Veteran
Veteran
shabbs wrote:Via Andy Strickland:

"According to sources Don Fehr has convinced the players the longer they remain firm, the better the deal will be down the road #NHLPA"

https://twitter.com/andystrickland/status/261173200686288897

"On Tuesday's conf. call Don fehr explained to the players that the deal got better in 2004the longer the lockout went. "

https://twitter.com/andystrickland/status/261173643244097538

Here we go. He's setting the table for a lost season.


He is a FOOL. And if the players believe him, they are bigger fools. This is not MLB with an infinite amount of revenue. This is a GATE DRIVEN sport for the most part. That gate driven revenue is from fans.. who will leave the sport in droves if this season is lost. Fehr had better realize that fast OR his players will be splitting revenue of about 2 billion... it could fall that far. This lockout is about greed.. and nothing else. To be so arrogant to take the fans through this again is dispicable.

92NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:30 pm

shabbs


Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Any guesses on how many games will be cancelled by the end of the week? Rest of November? More?

93NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:48 pm

NEELY


Mod
Mod
shabbs wrote:Any guesses on how many games will be cancelled by the end of the week? Rest of November? More?

Dec 1 is a Saturday so yah, make sense to cancel all games up until then. No point in trying to make any back either. 72 games vs 60... who cares?

94NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:13 pm

sandysensfan


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Veteran
NEELY wrote:
shabbs wrote:Any guesses on how many games will be cancelled by the end of the week? Rest of November? More?

Dec 1 is a Saturday so yah, make sense to cancel all games up until then. No point in trying to make any back either. 72 games vs 60... who cares?

Could they cancel the Winter Classic as well? They need time to get prepared for that.. It's a money grabber for both sides and NBC. I'm sure NBC will be severely pissed off if they don't get to show that...

95NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:59 pm

shabbs

shabbs
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Hall of Famer
The Winter Classic will probably be cancelled sometime in Nov. I doubt they'd cancel it this week... but it's not too far away for sure.

96NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:44 pm

Cap'n Clutch

Cap'n Clutch
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SeawaySensFan wrote:
Cap'n Clutch wrote:
Big Ev wrote:
Cap'n Clutch wrote:
Also to you BigEv the real question here is what would Sam The Record Man have thought were he still alive today?

I don't understand what you're referring to or asking me.

It's not supposed to make sense. True story.

He would have said "I said it, I did it!" Fact.

Thank you. That's all you had to say BigEv. I knew you'd come through for me SSF. Thanks old friend. Cheers


_________________
"A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world."

- Unknown Author

97NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:48 pm

Cap'n Clutch

Cap'n Clutch
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NEELY wrote:
shabbs wrote:I think Bettman may start to sweat this time around... hopefully someone is sweating and gives in soon. Hopefully!

Not sure why people keep saying Bettman will break... has he ever broken? He is clearly of the mindset that the fans will come back (point for the owners and players), he has never broken in negotiations (point for the owners), he has money coming into the owners for TV deal even during a lockout (point for the owners), and Pheonix, Columbus, and a dozen other teams lose less during a lockout then they otherwise would (point for the owners).

Where on earth does Fehr have the balls to say to the players "the owners will break" or w/e else. He was up against Selig in MLB, a former owner who had no business at the table with Fehr to begin with. He's against Bettman, a guy who cancelled an entire season to get what he wants... this won't be any different if the players don't link their salaries to revenue, that's what they lost an entire year for before... won't change.

The ten or so teams that practically print money when there's games will start to get really pissed off if there's yet another entire season lost. Do you really think the Leafs are happy right now? Sure they were happy when the cap came in but they're losing out on buckets of money for every lost game.


_________________
"A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world."

- Unknown Author

98NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:50 pm

NEELY


Mod
Mod
Cap'n Clutch wrote:
NEELY wrote:
shabbs wrote:I think Bettman may start to sweat this time around... hopefully someone is sweating and gives in soon. Hopefully!

Not sure why people keep saying Bettman will break... has he ever broken? He is clearly of the mindset that the fans will come back (point for the owners and players), he has never broken in negotiations (point for the owners), he has money coming into the owners for TV deal even during a lockout (point for the owners), and Pheonix, Columbus, and a dozen other teams lose less during a lockout then they otherwise would (point for the owners).

Where on earth does Fehr have the balls to say to the players "the owners will break" or w/e else. He was up against Selig in MLB, a former owner who had no business at the table with Fehr to begin with. He's against Bettman, a guy who cancelled an entire season to get what he wants... this won't be any different if the players don't link their salaries to revenue, that's what they lost an entire year for before... won't change.

The ten or so teams that practically print money when there's games will start to get really pissed off if there's yet another entire season lost. Do you really think the Leafs are happy right now? Sure they were happy when the cap came in but they're losing out on buckets of money for every lost game.

Yes, Bell/Rogers is really struggling for money. It's a long term investment for them and nothing else, don't kid yourself. The solo owners like Snider and Jacobs are the only voices that matters.

99NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:11 pm

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Rogers just posted an $8M LOSS on the MLSE ownership after only 3 months. Yikes.

100NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:21 pm

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
NEELY wrote:
SeawaySensFan wrote:
NEELY wrote:

Not bigger than the game but he's bigger than the Sens. Only reason I even went to games when the rest of the team (aside from Alfi and Phillips) was out on the town, banging broads and bumping rails.


I think that's a reasonable statement.

It's true, Alfi has his named chanted more at the games then the Sens do for the most part. Sometimes players are bigger than the teams they play on, never bigger than the game itself though. At this point, the only thing I care about is seeing Alfi play his last game and being there live for it despite my personal feelings on what is happening in the NHL now. I won't rob myself of something that I know will be incredibly special and something I've been part of since I was 10 or 11.

Ive been there for all of his biggest moments and won't miss this one either... if the NHL actually starts up. If they rob me of this event I won't be in an NHL arena for a very, very long time.

I was a bigger fan of Alfi than I was of the Sens for the past 4 or 5 seasons, last year hopefully was the rule going forward, not the exception.

Didn't you go to game 6 last year? If he doesn't play again, that will have been his last home game: a 3-2 loss to the Rangers, 3 shots on goal, no points. He got a goal in game 7.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

101NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:23 pm

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
spader wrote:
wprager wrote:Thing is, no-one cares about Alfie outside of Ottawa, and even here, I don't think you will find yourself in the majority. Sure, people will miss seeing #11 on the ice, but they'll still have #19 and #61, and newcomers like #93 and #33 to cheer on. I hardly ever spend money on tickets, so my "vote" means nothing. But I know a few regular season ticket holders and I doubt many of them would cancel just because we didn't get to see Alfie's swan song, farewell tour.

Also, in general, hockey arenas in the big markets will still be getting their sellouts. Bubble places, though, will likely join the likes of Phoenix, Columbus, NYI/NJ, Dallas, etc. Revenues will drop, for sure. Escrow payments will be huge.

Maybe they should play the next season under existing CBA rules while working on a deal. In the off-season the players would probably prefer a hard cap to one that is tied to revenues. They want guaranteed contracts? Well, then, forget about even pretending to be partners. Hard cap going up with the rate of inflation, and re-evaluated every 5 years (take 5 year average revenues to determine value).

Is Saprykin coming back? I think you over-value his draw. Sarcasm

Did I really say that?

...

Nope Smile


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

102NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:36 pm

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
sandysensfan wrote:
The only thing the NHLPA has to do is to take the Owners last proposal and tweak it to their liking. (They should have done this instead of the 3 proposals last week.) Then the NHL could come back with some more tweaking and so on... THAT is how to negotiate. That has not happened yet. No side has done a proposal off of the others' proposal and that is the issue.

I don't see this settled any time soon. They are just shooting themselves in the foot. The longer this goes.. the more fans they lose.. and the more revenue they lose. The NHLPA is willing to lose 1.87 Billion in revenue in 1 lost season than accept the latest NHL offer and lose 1.6B over 6 seasons.

I read/heard somewhere that they are about $300 Million apart. That is not much compared to the total 3.2 Billion dollar revenue from last season that it appears they are willing to just throw away.. That makes absolutely no sense to me..

For either side to dig in their heels to even consider doing this to their fan base, advertisers, sponsors, etc.. is reprehensible in my books..

But saying they are "$300 million apart" only works if you reduce the rhetoric on both sides to "Off", work with some *reasonable* projections, and are not biased to begin with. As far as the payers and NHL are concerned the two sides are a lot farther apart than that.

The NHL, as a whole, apparently lost $100M last year. This year they have *some* advertising revenue, and then there's the $200M from NBC. So they are probably $300M ahead of last year, already. Granted, the rich teams are only getting a smidgen of what they made last year, but they are not losing gobs of money, either. And I'm pretty sure that, when that year #11 of the NBC deal comes in and they pay them $0, that will go directly to reducing HRR by $200M compared to the previous season.

That's simple stuff, really. I can't believe that the players are so dumb, or so stubborn.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

103NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:54 pm

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
Cap'n Clutch wrote:
NEELY wrote:
shabbs wrote:I think Bettman may start to sweat this time around... hopefully someone is sweating and gives in soon. Hopefully!

Not sure why people keep saying Bettman will break... has he ever broken? He is clearly of the mindset that the fans will come back (point for the owners and players), he has never broken in negotiations (point for the owners), he has money coming into the owners for TV deal even during a lockout (point for the owners), and Pheonix, Columbus, and a dozen other teams lose less during a lockout then they otherwise would (point for the owners).

Where on earth does Fehr have the balls to say to the players "the owners will break" or w/e else. He was up against Selig in MLB, a former owner who had no business at the table with Fehr to begin with. He's against Bettman, a guy who cancelled an entire season to get what he wants... this won't be any different if the players don't link their salaries to revenue, that's what they lost an entire year for before... won't change.

The ten or so teams that practically print money when there's games will start to get really pissed off if there's yet another entire season lost. Do you really think the Leafs are happy right now? Sure they were happy when the cap came in but they're losing out on buckets of money for every lost game.

But did they make more money following the lockout? The Maple Leafs were worth $280M prior to the lockout, and were worth $521M in January (Forbes). That's a gain of $241M, or 86% Certainly, if they were going to sell (they just did, so a bit of a moot point) then the lockout was very, *very* good for them. On top of that, their payroll went from $61.8M before the lockout, to $39M when the lockout ended. Last season the cap was $64.3M, which is just 4% in 7 years (annual growth of only 0.568% -- well below inflation).

So, yeah, the lockout was very, very good for the Leafs. The Leafs had an operating income of just $15M in 2001, primarily because of salaries. With the cap in place, their operating income last season was $83M. So they lost $15M from not playing in 2004, but their payroll dropped over $22M in the 2005-06 season. And they were still selling out and did not drop ticket prices, so if you assume they would have made $30M in 2004 and 2005 (without a lockout) they made up $22M of that in the first year back, and 7 years later they were clearing more than 5x what they did before the lockout. I'd say they were better than break-even in the second year post lockout.

Granted, the numbers this time around are different, and it will take them longer to make up the $83M lost that it did last time, but they are looking at a 5-7 year plan.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

104NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:56 pm

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
shabbs wrote:Rogers just posted an $8M LOSS on the MLSE ownership after only 3 months. Yikes.

Sure they did.

Wait, does that mean the players owe them $4M next year in a 50-50 arrangement?


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

105NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:24 pm

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
wprager wrote:
shabbs wrote:Rogers just posted an $8M LOSS on the MLSE ownership after only 3 months. Yikes.

Sure they did.

Wait, does that mean the players owe them $4M next year in a 50-50 arrangement?
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/24/new-leafs-co-owners-rogers-reports-quarterly-loss-on-mlse/

Heh.

HRL? Hockey Related Losses?

106NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:52 pm

NEELY


Mod
Mod
shabbs wrote:Rogers just posted an $8M LOSS on the MLSE ownership after only 3 months. Yikes.

Pennies.

107NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:54 pm

NEELY


Mod
Mod
wprager wrote:
Cap'n Clutch wrote:
NEELY wrote:
shabbs wrote:I think Bettman may start to sweat this time around... hopefully someone is sweating and gives in soon. Hopefully!

Not sure why people keep saying Bettman will break... has he ever broken? He is clearly of the mindset that the fans will come back (point for the owners and players), he has never broken in negotiations (point for the owners), he has money coming into the owners for TV deal even during a lockout (point for the owners), and Pheonix, Columbus, and a dozen other teams lose less during a lockout then they otherwise would (point for the owners).

Where on earth does Fehr have the balls to say to the players "the owners will break" or w/e else. He was up against Selig in MLB, a former owner who had no business at the table with Fehr to begin with. He's against Bettman, a guy who cancelled an entire season to get what he wants... this won't be any different if the players don't link their salaries to revenue, that's what they lost an entire year for before... won't change.

Exactly. Players average career in the NHL? 4, 5 years on average. Owners timeline in NHL? As long as they wish for the most part, it's not a short term investment and the sooner players realize the owners can out wait them in such a big way the better off they will be.

The ten or so teams that practically print money when there's games will start to get really pissed off if there's yet another entire season lost. Do you really think the Leafs are happy right now? Sure they were happy when the cap came in but they're losing out on buckets of money for every lost game.

But did they make more money following the lockout? The Maple Leafs were worth $280M prior to the lockout, and were worth $521M in January (Forbes). That's a gain of $241M, or 86% Certainly, if they were going to sell (they just did, so a bit of a moot point) then the lockout was very, *very* good for them. On top of that, their payroll went from $61.8M before the lockout, to $39M when the lockout ended. Last season the cap was $64.3M, which is just 4% in 7 years (annual growth of only 0.568% -- well below inflation).

So, yeah, the lockout was very, very good for the Leafs. The Leafs had an operating income of just $15M in 2001, primarily because of salaries. With the cap in place, their operating income last season was $83M. So they lost $15M from not playing in 2004, but their payroll dropped over $22M in the 2005-06 season. And they were still selling out and did not drop ticket prices, so if you assume they would have made $30M in 2004 and 2005 (without a lockout) they made up $22M of that in the first year back, and 7 years later they were clearing more than 5x what they did before the lockout. I'd say they were better than break-even in the second year post lockout.

Granted, the numbers this time around are different, and it will take them longer to make up the $83M lost that it did last time, but they are looking at a 5-7 year plan.

108NHL CBA Talk - Page 7 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:01 pm

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
NEELY wrote:
shabbs wrote:Rogers just posted an $8M LOSS on the MLSE ownership after only 3 months. Yikes.

Pennies.
As compared to the value, yes, but I'm still surprised to see a loss by this "money machine" they call MLSE.

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