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526NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:11 pm

Cap'n Clutch


Co-Founder
Co-Founder
There are labour laws but, sadly there quite often needs to be a union in place because the company is ignoring those laws. The lack of enforcement and the method of enforcement lends itself to abuse and therefore a need for unions.

527NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:31 pm

rooneypoo


All-Star
All-Star
NEELY wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
sandysensfan wrote:
shabbs wrote:Live coverage of Don Fehr's speech on now... TSN and Sportsnet covering it...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/nhl-lockout-coverage/

Why would they cover that. He is talking to a Union that almost destroyed the Auto Industry. Not the first or last time that Union demands did damage to their employer. But Unions don't care. There is really no need for them in this day and age.

They were first brought in for the minors many decades ago who were being mistreated by the mine owners. There are laws now to protect workers. All Unions are is a detriment to the economy.

Is Fehr looking for a new job?

He is a master manipulator. His idea of negotiations is to frustrate the other side to negotiate with itself. I guess it's working.. but I think that stops as of now.

Those players were close to a deal on Tuesday.. but Fehr told them to hold on for a better offer.

Personally I hope that better offer does not come and Bettman cancels the season.

There was nothing wrong with that offer. You want labour peace.. then you can have it for 8 - 10 yrs.

Fehr's theory of a 5-yr CBA was that younger players would get to negotiate their own CBA when this one expires.

The players would like nothing better than to have a work stoppage during the 100th anniversary of the NHL.. they don't give a damn.. as long as they get their $$$.

I have lost a lot of respect for the players...

I've tried to be quiet about this, but... please, just shut up. You have no clue what you're talking about, and this kind of drivel is offensive to anyone with half a brain.

No need for unions. Yeah, let's go back to the 1820s, because that worked out for everyone. Laugh1

Again, both sides are stupid in this, end of story. If you want to place blame, there's plenty to go around on both sides. The league is equally responsible for this, so please stop acting as a mouthpiece for Gary Bettman.

They needed them back then but now... not so much. People are educated, people have very specific skills, and people will pay out the Donkey for who ever makes them money.

I'm against people driving bolts into metal to make a car who get paid 40 dollars an hour. You need to know how yo use your hands and feet, they should be paid bare minimum.

Undoubtedly, there are all kinds of abuses and inequities that unions perpetuate. I myself am a victim of them in some ways -- I have old farts who are lousy teachers getting courses in front of me, when I have a terminal degree in my discipline, plenty of publications, and good teaching reviews, all because of seniority.

I get it. I get that there are things that are wrong with unions. But abolishing them is not the answer, and is an invitation to return to 1820s' style labour relations. Unions push wages and benefits up for everyone, regardless of whether or not you're in a union -- because the company you're in is competing against companies that do have unions.

At its most basic, labour deserves the right to organize to represent its collective interests, just like businesses have the right to do the same, or anyone else for that matter. People who think unions need to go are not thinking long term, and have not learned from history. If you want to be heard, you need a voice, and you need a mechanism to be that voice. For labour, it's unions. If you lose unions but keep the lobbies and special interest groups, what you have is not a level playing field, it's a field tilted heavily in favour of business or special interests. Denying labour a voice would be undemocratic and contrary to that basic right to organization and representation that we grant to every other group out there in society.

528NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:34 pm

rooneypoo


All-Star
All-Star
Oglethorpe wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
sandysensfan wrote:
shabbs wrote:Live coverage of Don Fehr's speech on now... TSN and Sportsnet covering it...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/nhl-lockout-coverage/

Why would they cover that. He is talking to a Union that almost destroyed the Auto Industry. Not the first or last time that Union demands did damage to their employer. But Unions don't care. There is really no need for them in this day and age.

They were first brought in for the minors many decades ago who were being mistreated by the mine owners. There are laws now to protect workers. All Unions are is a detriment to the economy.

Is Fehr looking for a new job?

He is a master manipulator. His idea of negotiations is to frustrate the other side to negotiate with itself. I guess it's working.. but I think that stops as of now.

Those players were close to a deal on Tuesday.. but Fehr told them to hold on for a better offer.

Personally I hope that better offer does not come and Bettman cancels the season.

There was nothing wrong with that offer. You want labour peace.. then you can have it for 8 - 10 yrs.

Fehr's theory of a 5-yr CBA was that younger players would get to negotiate their own CBA when this one expires.

The players would like nothing better than to have a work stoppage during the 100th anniversary of the NHL.. they don't give a damn.. as long as they get their $$$.

I have lost a lot of respect for the players...

I've tried to be quiet about this, but... please, just shut up. You have no clue what you're talking about, and this kind of drivel is offensive to anyone with half a brain.

No need for unions. Yeah, let's go back to the 1820s, because that worked out for everyone.
Laugh1

Again, both sides are stupid in this, end of story. If you want to place blame, there's plenty to go around on both sides. The league is equally responsible for this, so please stop acting as a mouthpiece for Gary Bettman.
That is quite the ignorant statement on your behalf, you can disagree but there is no need to be offensive and rude. You owe the previous poster an apology.

Your statement is also "drivel", stating that without unions we would have conditions like the 1820s. Labour laws are a tad bit different today than the 1820s. Unions are a necessary part of society, but to be fair, even the most ardent supporter of organized labour would have to admit that these organizations far exceed the role of protecting their members against unfair working conditions and providing collective bargaining. The fact that the large labour unions now actively participate in the political process through donations and endorsements without a vote from their membership, or try to drive public policy is what has caused backlash from non-union supporters in the middle class.




I'll apologize the second I hear the other poster apologize for filling up these boards, day after day, for months, with the same scripted nonsense.

I repeat: this lockout is the byproduct of two absolutely stupid parties playing a challenged game of chicken. They are both to blame, and looking to blame one more than the other is a chicken & egg problem. They're both at fault. Leave it at that, for Diddle's sakes.

529NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:39 pm

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
All-Star
All-Star
Cap'n Clutch wrote:There are labour laws but, sadly there quite often needs to be a union in place because the company is ignoring those laws. The lack of enforcement and the method of enforcement lends itself to abuse and therefore a need for unions.

Exactly. I hate a lot of things about unions, but to argue that business will self-govern itself with equity and fairness to its workers for very long is child-like naivete. However ugly, unions have evolved in the civilized, democratic western world in order to check the even uglier spectacle of business operating unfettered by government or the labour movement.

530NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:10 pm

Cap'n Clutch

Cap'n Clutch
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
To be fair, if there were an adequate level and method of enforcement then there wouldn't be a need for unions but, that will likely never happen.

Although it happens far less, ignorance of the law and a businesses own policies, guidelines as well as collectively bargained benefits happens as well and if the employee is also ignorant it can make for similar results as those that are seen in non unionized businesses.


_________________
"A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world."

- Unknown Author

531NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:52 pm

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
All-Star
All-Star
Cap'n Clutch wrote:To be fair, if there were an adequate level and method of enforcement then there wouldn't be a need for unions but, that will likely never happen.

Although it happens far less, ignorance of the law and a businesses own policies, guidelines as well as collectively bargained benefits happens as well and if the employee is also ignorant it can make for similar results as those that are seen in non unionized businesses.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander: abolish unions, but abolish all lobbies and all special interest groups too.

There's a reason why people who share similar interests come together as a collective to promote their own interests, again and again, all throughout the history of the modern, civilized western world: it works. Give everyone the right to do so, or deny it to everyone. Anything in between is privileging the interests of one or some groups over those of others. Whatever that is, it's not democracy, whose first principle is equal rights for all, in the eyes of the legislative (i.e., law making) and judiciary (i.e., law upholding) systems.

532NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:09 pm

sandysensfan


Veteran
Veteran
rooneypoo wrote:
Oglethorpe wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
sandysensfan wrote:
shabbs wrote:Live coverage of Don Fehr's speech on now... TSN and Sportsnet covering it...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/nhl-lockout-coverage/

Why would they cover that. He is talking to a Union that almost destroyed the Auto Industry. Not the first or last time that Union demands did damage to their employer. But Unions don't care. There is really no need for them in this day and age.

They were first brought in for the minors many decades ago who were being mistreated by the mine owners. There are laws now to protect workers. All Unions are is a detriment to the economy.

Is Fehr looking for a new job?

He is a master manipulator. His idea of negotiations is to frustrate the other side to negotiate with itself. I guess it's working.. but I think that stops as of now.

Those players were close to a deal on Tuesday.. but Fehr told them to hold on for a better offer.

Personally I hope that better offer does not come and Bettman cancels the season.

There was nothing wrong with that offer. You want labour peace.. then you can have it for 8 - 10 yrs.

Fehr's theory of a 5-yr CBA was that younger players would get to negotiate their own CBA when this one expires.

The players would like nothing better than to have a work stoppage during the 100th anniversary of the NHL.. they don't give a damn.. as long as they get their $$$.

I have lost a lot of respect for the players...

I've tried to be quiet about this, but... please, just shut up. You have no clue what you're talking about, and this kind of drivel is offensive to anyone with half a brain.

No need for unions. Yeah, let's go back to the 1820s, because that worked out for everyone.
Laugh1

Again, both sides are stupid in this, end of story. If you want to place blame, there's plenty to go around on both sides. The league is equally responsible for this, so please stop acting as a mouthpiece for Gary Bettman.
That is quite the ignorant statement on your behalf, you can disagree but there is no need to be offensive and rude. You owe the previous poster an apology.

Your statement is also "drivel", stating that without unions we would have conditions like the 1820s. Labour laws are a tad bit different today than the 1820s. Unions are a necessary part of society, but to be fair, even the most ardent supporter of organized labour would have to admit that these organizations far exceed the role of protecting their members against unfair working conditions and providing collective bargaining. The fact that the large labour unions now actively participate in the political process through donations and endorsements without a vote from their membership, or try to drive public policy is what has caused backlash from non-union supporters in the middle class.




I'll apologize the second I hear the other poster apologize for filling up these boards, day after day, for months, with the same scripted nonsense.

I repeat: this lockout is the byproduct of two absolutely stupid parties playing a challenged game of chicken. They are both to blame, and looking to blame one more than the other is a chicken & egg problem. They're both at fault. Leave it at that, for Diddle's sakes.

Haven't a lot of us posted this stuff for months and months. If you don't like what I write.. you don't have to read it -- you see my name then just skip it..

I'm as frustrated as the next person. I want this over.. but I have no control to do that...

I started out supporting no one. The Owners started this mess (or at least some of them) and the players are not doing anything to help it. I don't like the tactics that Fehr is using.. and some of these quotes by some of those players are way over the line.

Opinions are that.. just opinions. There is no need to get mean..

533NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:23 pm

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
All-Star
All-Star
sandysensfan wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
Oglethorpe wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
sandysensfan wrote:
shabbs wrote:Live coverage of Don Fehr's speech on now... TSN and Sportsnet covering it...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/nhl-lockout-coverage/

Why would they cover that. He is talking to a Union that almost destroyed the Auto Industry. Not the first or last time that Union demands did damage to their employer. But Unions don't care. There is really no need for them in this day and age.

They were first brought in for the minors many decades ago who were being mistreated by the mine owners. There are laws now to protect workers. All Unions are is a detriment to the economy.

Is Fehr looking for a new job?

He is a master manipulator. His idea of negotiations is to frustrate the other side to negotiate with itself. I guess it's working.. but I think that stops as of now.

Those players were close to a deal on Tuesday.. but Fehr told them to hold on for a better offer.

Personally I hope that better offer does not come and Bettman cancels the season.

There was nothing wrong with that offer. You want labour peace.. then you can have it for 8 - 10 yrs.

Fehr's theory of a 5-yr CBA was that younger players would get to negotiate their own CBA when this one expires.

The players would like nothing better than to have a work stoppage during the 100th anniversary of the NHL.. they don't give a damn.. as long as they get their $$$.

I have lost a lot of respect for the players...

I've tried to be quiet about this, but... please, just shut up. You have no clue what you're talking about, and this kind of drivel is offensive to anyone with half a brain.

No need for unions. Yeah, let's go back to the 1820s, because that worked out for everyone.
Laugh1

Again, both sides are stupid in this, end of story. If you want to place blame, there's plenty to go around on both sides. The league is equally responsible for this, so please stop acting as a mouthpiece for Gary Bettman.
That is quite the ignorant statement on your behalf, you can disagree but there is no need to be offensive and rude. You owe the previous poster an apology.

Your statement is also "drivel", stating that without unions we would have conditions like the 1820s. Labour laws are a tad bit different today than the 1820s. Unions are a necessary part of society, but to be fair, even the most ardent supporter of organized labour would have to admit that these organizations far exceed the role of protecting their members against unfair working conditions and providing collective bargaining. The fact that the large labour unions now actively participate in the political process through donations and endorsements without a vote from their membership, or try to drive public policy is what has caused backlash from non-union supporters in the middle class.




I'll apologize the second I hear the other poster apologize for filling up these boards, day after day, for months, with the same scripted nonsense.

I repeat: this lockout is the byproduct of two absolutely stupid parties playing a challenged game of chicken. They are both to blame, and looking to blame one more than the other is a chicken & egg problem. They're both at fault. Leave it at that, for Diddle's sakes.

Haven't a lot of us posted this stuff for months and months. If you don't like what I write.. you don't have to read it -- you see my name then just skip it..

I'm as frustrated as the next person. I want this over.. but I have no control to do that...

I started out supporting no one. The Owners started this mess (or at least some of them) and the players are not doing anything to help it. I don't like the tactics that Fehr is using.. and some of these quotes by some of those players are way over the line.

Opinions are that.. just opinions. There is no need to get mean..

That's fair. My apologies. Just please stop writing long posts about how awful the players are. I assure you, the owners are just as awful. They are both, equally and collectively, ruining this game.

534NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:40 pm

Cap'n Clutch

Cap'n Clutch
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
I would say more accurately they're ruining the industry. It could be argued, should some teams fold, that they're actually going to make the game better by having fewer positions open for players and in theory ensuring a higher quality product.

I also do understand that should the industry falter it means less games on TV, less interest and would likely mean less people interested in playing and eventually less of a pool of players to pick from.


_________________
"A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world."

- Unknown Author

535NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:45 pm

sandysensfan


Veteran
Veteran
Cap'n Clutch wrote:I would say more accurately they're ruining the industry. It could be argued, should some teams fold, that they're actually going to make the game better by having fewer positions open for players and in theory ensuring a higher quality product.

I also do understand that should the industry falter it means less games on TV, less interest and would likely mean less people interested in playing and eventually less of a pool of players to pick from.

Hockey is still going on... just not the NHL. Unfortunate for Ottawa fans that the 67's are having a pretty bad year... we have to put our heart & soul into Binghamton..

But have heard on the radio (although only assumptions) that the NHL could consider expansion of 2 new teams within 2 or 3 years after this lockout is over. Quebec City and Seattle are rumoured to be the ones... but then again only rumours..

But I believe -- expansion revenues are not the HRR that is shared with the players.. so the Owners will get that money as well.

536NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:59 pm

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Via John Shannon:

"Just confirming from earlier today. Yes, the sides have talked. They do hope to meet this week. Date and time TBA. #NHL#NHLPA"

https://twitter.com/JSportsnet/status/277966414151819264

537NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:03 pm

Cap'n Clutch

Cap'n Clutch
Co-Founder
Co-Founder
I don't see expansion happening if the damage to the industry is extensive enough to cause a team or two to fold.


_________________
"A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world."

- Unknown Author

538NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:09 pm

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Expansion will happen. No doubt about it. 32 teams. Divides up so much better. And the owners will want the expansion fees.

539NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:34 am

NEELY


Mod
Mod
rooneypoo wrote:
NEELY wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
sandysensfan wrote:
shabbs wrote:Live coverage of Don Fehr's speech on now... TSN and Sportsnet covering it...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/nhl-lockout-coverage/

Why would they cover that. He is talking to a Union that almost destroyed the Auto Industry. Not the first or last time that Union demands did damage to their employer. But Unions don't care. There is really no need for them in this day and age.

They were first brought in for the minors many decades ago who were being mistreated by the mine owners. There are laws now to protect workers. All Unions are is a detriment to the economy.

Is Fehr looking for a new job?

He is a master manipulator. His idea of negotiations is to frustrate the other side to negotiate with itself. I guess it's working.. but I think that stops as of now.

Those players were close to a deal on Tuesday.. but Fehr told them to hold on for a better offer.

Personally I hope that better offer does not come and Bettman cancels the season.

There was nothing wrong with that offer. You want labour peace.. then you can have it for 8 - 10 yrs.

Fehr's theory of a 5-yr CBA was that younger players would get to negotiate their own CBA when this one expires.

The players would like nothing better than to have a work stoppage during the 100th anniversary of the NHL.. they don't give a damn.. as long as they get their $$$.

I have lost a lot of respect for the players...

I've tried to be quiet about this, but... please, just shut up. You have no clue what you're talking about, and this kind of drivel is offensive to anyone with half a brain.

No need for unions. Yeah, let's go back to the 1820s, because that worked out for everyone. Laugh1

Again, both sides are stupid in this, end of story. If you want to place blame, there's plenty to go around on both sides. The league is equally responsible for this, so please stop acting as a mouthpiece for Gary Bettman.

They needed them back then but now... not so much. People are educated, people have very specific skills, and people will pay out the Donkey for who ever makes them money.

I'm against people driving bolts into metal to make a car who get paid 40 dollars an hour. You need to know how yo use your hands and feet, they should be paid bare minimum.

Undoubtedly, there are all kinds of abuses and inequities that unions perpetuate. I myself am a victim of them in some ways -- I have old farts who are lousy teachers getting courses in front of me, when I have a terminal degree in my discipline, plenty of publications, and good teaching reviews, all because of seniority.

I get it. I get that there are things that are wrong with unions. But abolishing them is not the answer, and is an invitation to return to 1820s' style labour relations. Unions push wages and benefits up for everyone, regardless of whether or not you're in a union -- because the company you're in is competing against companies that do have unions.

At its most basic, labour deserves the right to organize to represent its collective interests, just like businesses have the right to do the same, or anyone else for that matter. People who think unions need to go are not thinking long term, and have not learned from history. If you want to be heard, you need a voice, and you need a mechanism to be that voice. For labour, it's unions. If you lose unions but keep the lobbies and special interest groups, what you have is not a level playing field, it's a field tilted heavily in favour of business or special interests. Denying labour a voice would be undemocratic and contrary to that basic right to organization and representation that we grant to every other group out there in society.

I work for a private company (as you know) and not only am I paid well I have never felt as if I have been treated unfairly and not once have I ever felt my concerns, ideas, or general thoughts were falling on def ears.

Is there a place for unions? I think so but not the power hungry, out of wack, no touch with reality unions like we see today. Teachers union? WOW, they run the province and there is no need for that. Do teachers need to be represented? Yah, probably. Should they be running the province on Ontario? No they shouldn't.

Id say something about the postal workers union but technology is making it a dead industry. If I never got another piece of mail again I would be fine with that, I don't need it.

Unions (back in the 1820's) were a means of getting workers fair wages, benefits, and in general a way to make sure the workers are treated fairly. Now? Please. Unions for the most part want control, they want the power, and they would bleed every last penny dry of a company, province, or country if they could. They don't care about the worker and thinking they do is nieve.

Saying if we dont have unions everything will revert back to the 1800's is a crutch in a big way. Times have changed, people are self employeed, people, people work on contracts, there are very specific labour laws, and like I said before, people have very specific skill sets in which there will always be work and well paid work at that.

Why should someone who pops 200 flyers a week in my mail box with no actual mail get 50,000-80,00 a year? Why should I be paying for that? Why should bus drivers in this city be paid like they are? Why do car factory employees get the wages and benefits they do? None of it is fair, it's beyond fair.

People are sick of unions and their usefulness is becoming a thing of the past very quickly. They are a drain on the economy and the normal, everyday tax payer.

To stay on subject, the fact the Fehr can go and speak about unions and labour woes and the economic troubles of his "workers" is insulting to everyone who has a job. The NHLPA isn't a union, it's a group of selfish, self loathing, wacked out of their skull athletes who don't even know what the hell is going on with their world or the real on.

What the NHLPA is doing now will not only hurt themselves but the NHL as well. There is no "love of the game", it's a line like "do it for the children". That's what unions do, they hold someone hostage until they get what they want. They don't care, never have, never will.

540NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:40 am

NEELY


Mod
Mod
Oh yah, expansion will happen along with a team or two moving to Seattle and KC. Both will be better options.

It's a matter of time before Toronto and QC get a team up and going.

541NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:09 am

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
All-Star
All-Star
NEELY wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
NEELY wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:
sandysensfan wrote:
shabbs wrote:Live coverage of Don Fehr's speech on now... TSN and Sportsnet covering it...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/nhl-lockout-coverage/

Why would they cover that. He is talking to a Union that almost destroyed the Auto Industry. Not the first or last time that Union demands did damage to their employer. But Unions don't care. There is really no need for them in this day and age.

They were first brought in for the minors many decades ago who were being mistreated by the mine owners. There are laws now to protect workers. All Unions are is a detriment to the economy.

Is Fehr looking for a new job?

He is a master manipulator. His idea of negotiations is to frustrate the other side to negotiate with itself. I guess it's working.. but I think that stops as of now.

Those players were close to a deal on Tuesday.. but Fehr told them to hold on for a better offer.

Personally I hope that better offer does not come and Bettman cancels the season.

There was nothing wrong with that offer. You want labour peace.. then you can have it for 8 - 10 yrs.

Fehr's theory of a 5-yr CBA was that younger players would get to negotiate their own CBA when this one expires.

The players would like nothing better than to have a work stoppage during the 100th anniversary of the NHL.. they don't give a damn.. as long as they get their $$$.

I have lost a lot of respect for the players...

I've tried to be quiet about this, but... please, just shut up. You have no clue what you're talking about, and this kind of drivel is offensive to anyone with half a brain.

No need for unions. Yeah, let's go back to the 1820s, because that worked out for everyone. Laugh1

Again, both sides are stupid in this, end of story. If you want to place blame, there's plenty to go around on both sides. The league is equally responsible for this, so please stop acting as a mouthpiece for Gary Bettman.

They needed them back then but now... not so much. People are educated, people have very specific skills, and people will pay out the Donkey for who ever makes them money.

I'm against people driving bolts into metal to make a car who get paid 40 dollars an hour. You need to know how yo use your hands and feet, they should be paid bare minimum.

Undoubtedly, there are all kinds of abuses and inequities that unions perpetuate. I myself am a victim of them in some ways -- I have old farts who are lousy teachers getting courses in front of me, when I have a terminal degree in my discipline, plenty of publications, and good teaching reviews, all because of seniority.

I get it. I get that there are things that are wrong with unions. But abolishing them is not the answer, and is an invitation to return to 1820s' style labour relations. Unions push wages and benefits up for everyone, regardless of whether or not you're in a union -- because the company you're in is competing against companies that do have unions.

At its most basic, labour deserves the right to organize to represent its collective interests, just like businesses have the right to do the same, or anyone else for that matter. People who think unions need to go are not thinking long term, and have not learned from history. If you want to be heard, you need a voice, and you need a mechanism to be that voice. For labour, it's unions. If you lose unions but keep the lobbies and special interest groups, what you have is not a level playing field, it's a field tilted heavily in favour of business or special interests. Denying labour a voice would be undemocratic and contrary to that basic right to organization and representation that we grant to every other group out there in society.

I work for a private company (as you know) and not only am I paid well I have never felt as if I have been treated unfairly and not once have I ever felt my concerns, ideas, or general thoughts were falling on def ears.

Is there a place for unions? I think so but not the power hungry, out of wack, no touch with reality unions like we see today. Teachers union? WOW, they run the province and there is no need for that. Do teachers need to be represented? Yah, probably. Should they be running the province on Ontario? No they shouldn't.

Id say something about the postal workers union but technology is making it a dead industry. If I never got another piece of mail again I would be fine with that, I don't need it.

Unions (back in the 1820's) were a means of getting workers fair wages, benefits, and in general a way to make sure the workers are treated fairly. Now? Please. Unions for the most part want control, they want the power, and they would bleed every last penny dry of a company, province, or country if they could. They don't care about the worker and thinking they do is nieve.

Saying if we dont have unions everything will revert back to the 1800's is a crutch in a big way. Times have changed, people are self employeed, people, people work on contracts, there are very specific labour laws, and like I said before, people have very specific skill sets in which there will always be work and well paid work at that.

Why should someone who pops 200 flyers a week in my mail box with no actual mail get 50,000-80,00 a year? Why should I be paying for that? Why should bus drivers in this city be paid like they are? Why do car factory employees get the wages and benefits they do? None of it is fair, it's beyond fair.

People are sick of unions and their usefulness is becoming a thing of the past very quickly. They are a drain on the economy and the normal, everyday tax payer.

To stay on subject, the fact the Fehr can go and speak about unions and labour woes and the economic troubles of his "workers" is insulting to everyone who has a job. The NHLPA isn't a union, it's a group of selfish, self loathing, wacked out of their skull athletes who don't even know what the hell is going on with their world or the real on.

What the NHLPA is doing now will not only hurt themselves but the NHL as well. There is no "love of the game", it's a line like "do it for the children". That's what unions do, they hold someone hostage until they get what they want. They don't care, never have, never will.

And you think business operates any differently? Get real. They have one concern in mind, too, and that's getting the most for themselves that they possibly can. The difference between unions and businesses and their lobby and special interest groups is precisely zero -- they all collectivize in order to strengthen their position to pursue their interests & get the most they can.

Unions are the ying to business's yang. Both have many good and many bad (sometimes very bad) features, but there is no balance without them. Think your employer would pay you so well or treat you so well if it weren't for almost 200 years of labour consciousness preparing the ground for the job you walked into, and influencing all the jobs around you that your employer has to compete with? To think so is naive and historically short-sighted. If unions were to crumble tomorrow, not much would change in the short term. In the long term, business would have it's own way -- and that would mean getting the most it can for itself, as any group tries to do (unions included). They pay skilled people now good wages because they have to compete for that labour in a marketplace that is highly unionized, meaning that they have to offer competitive wages and benefits -- all of which have been fought for and earned over the decades and centuries by the labour movement. Why they hell would they do that when there is no check in place to balance that equation? Look at what is happening in the states, in places like Alabama. People working at un-unionized auto factories for $12 - $14 dollars an hour. Ever try to make a living, let alone raise a family, at minimum wage?

It's the way things work. Business will always want to pay the least it can, unions will always want its members to get the most they can. Government is supposed to offer some basic ground rules for both, and to allow them both the chance to represent their interests. Your beef is not with unions (or even businesses), it's the greed and selfishness that fuel any collective looking to get the most it can for itself. Well, sorry, that's human nature, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Businesses and special interest groups are taking your MPs out to dinner every night, wining and dining them in the hopes to tilt the landscape in their favour, because, guess what, they want to get the most that they can for themselves. The labour movement is there to keep that Dung in check.

Until people stop coming together to protect their own interests (labourers, businessmen, farmers, special interest groups, etc. etc.), there will always be the sorry spectacle of people trying to get what they can, when they can, and as much of it as they can. That's humanity, man. Beating up on unions for doing exactly what every other group out there does is just stupid.

542NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:14 am

NEELY


Mod
Mod
A lot of those are fair points and I have resigned my argument of unions not having a place 200 years ago and is the basis of a lot of today's labour laws which everyone benefits from. I get the history of it and I won't ignore it to benefit my side of things. That said, we also benefited from the steam engine but we don't use that anymore either.

You look at the government as a prime example of people that work to rule and get paid way more than they should for it. Why is that? Because they are worth it? No, because they can and the fact Trudeau put it in the Canadian Constitution that all government workers MUST be represented by a union is border line criminal. Where is the free will there? Why is being part of a union a qualification and not a choice? Doesn't seem very democratic to me but lets not pretend unions aren't very socialist, borderline communist.

In some walks of life are there a need for unions? Yah, I think so, in some aspect. Do unions have way too much power and pull? Yah they do and saying otherwise is ignoring the obvious and all the facts. There needs to be a shift the other way because the majority of people are sick of it, hell, even those in the unions are sick of it. I have friends making 30 dollars an hour for stocking shelves at a hospital... that's all they do. That's not right because we all pay for it. That's minimum wage labour. I don't fault him for taking the job and sticking with it, it would be dumb to give that up but it doesn't mean it's right.

Are large Co.op a problem? Absolutely. Lets not pretend though that a place like Walmart doesn't pay head office employees as good, if not better than a lot of unionized groups. If you have an education, if you have a good work ethic, and if you have a good head on your shoulders you will be paid and be paid well no matter where you work, unions or not. Saying society will revert back to 1820 is naive (corrected spelling), it won't happen. People pay for skill sets and will pay a lot for the right ones.

543NHL CBA Talk - Page 36 Empty Re: NHL CBA Talk on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:29 am

NEELY


Mod
Mod
I'll say it again though, any argument you are making for a union shouldn't be argued for the NHLPA. That is not what a union is for... protecting the rights of millionaires.

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