Ottawa prospect Number 1

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    Ottawa prospect Number 1

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    Total Votes: 14

    DefenceWinsChampionships
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:53 pm

    Ev wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:This is outdated. Should be prospects with less than 20 games of NHL experience. My top 10 for you to debate:

    1) Puempel
    2) Prince
    3) Paul
    4) Wikstrand
    5) Lindberg
    6) O'Connor
    7) Chabot
    8) White
    9) Claesson
    10) Dzingel

    But again, it is a combination of skill and readiness and purely my opinion. Just because White/Chabot were top 20 picks doesn't mean they're top 5 prospects.

    disagree with that. I don't see any way the organization would value Lindberg or Prince over White and Chabot. Lindberg shouldn't be in the conversation. Chabot would definitely be above Wikstrand I would say, but it might be close because I know they love Wikstrand.

    These guys haven't even skated at the AHL level. Prince/Lindberg in their current state are significantly better than White/Chabot right now. Things change but as it stands they are better prospects.

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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by Ev on Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:55 pm

    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:This is outdated. Should be prospects with less than 20 games of NHL experience. My top 10 for you to debate:

    1) Puempel
    2) Prince
    3) Paul
    4) Wikstrand
    5) Lindberg
    6) O'Connor
    7) Chabot
    8) White
    9) Claesson
    10) Dzingel

    But again, it is a combination of skill and readiness and purely my opinion. Just because White/Chabot were top 20 picks doesn't mean they're top 5 prospects.

    disagree with that. I don't see any way the organization would value Lindberg or Prince over White and Chabot. Lindberg shouldn't be in the conversation. Chabot would definitely be above Wikstrand I would say, but it might be close because I know they love Wikstrand.

    These guys haven't even skated at the AHL level. Prince/Lindberg in their current state are significantly better than White/Chabot right now. Things change but as it stands they are better prospects.

    I edited my post before you sent this. Would anyone trade their 18th or 21st pick for Tobias Lindberg or Shane Prince? No. A guy like White is on a completely different level than Lindberg or Prince.

    Lindberg is an average NHL prospect. Making the NHL is an uncertainty for him, and his upside is minimal. Prince is a decent skilled prospect but he's small and White kills him as a prospect.

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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by spader on Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:58 pm

    Ev wrote:
    Yes lazar was easily the teams best prospect going into last year.

    This year it is now Chabot or white.

    Disagree. I voted for Stone and continue to think that, at this time last season, he was the best prospect in the system. Draft position doesn't necessarily correlate to best prospect. I'm a believer that highest attainable upside is the best determining factor when choosing the best prospect.

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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by Ev on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:00 pm

    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Yes lazar was easily the teams best prospect going into last year.

    This year it is now Chabot or white.

    Disagree. I voted for Stone and continue to think that, at this time last season, he was the best prospect in the system. Draft position doesn't necessarily correlate to best prospect. I'm a believer that highest attainable upside is the best determining factor when choosing the best prospect.


    I didn't view Stone as a prospect going into last season and I was going by upside and not draft selection when saying Lazar was clear-cut the number one prospect. The organization viewed Lazar higher than Stone, though.
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by spader on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:14 pm

    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Yes lazar was easily the teams best prospect going into last year.

    This year it is now Chabot or white.

    Disagree. I voted for Stone and continue to think that, at this time last season, he was the best prospect in the system. Draft position doesn't necessarily correlate to best prospect. I'm a believer that highest attainable upside is the best determining factor when choosing the best prospect.


    I didn't view Stone as a prospect going into last season and I was going by upside and not draft selection when saying Lazar was clear-cut the number one prospect. The organization viewed Lazar higher than Stone, though.

    I guess you're really sticking to the idea that a prospect is a player who has played fewer than 20 NHL games. I prefer aligning my definition of "prospect" with the rules set out in Calder eligibility. After 25 games in a season, you're eligible for a Calder trophy and ineligible (in my mind) of being considered a prospect. I think the 20 game thing is a bit silly. A player who plays 9 games, then gets returned to junior, then plays 11 games the next season as a callup, getting returned to the AHL after each stint, is still a prospect to me.

    Stone played 19 games in his longest NHL season, 24 games total (including 1 playoff game). I still considered him a prospect at this time last year. Lazar is no longer a prospect in my mind.
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by Ev on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:19 pm

    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Yes lazar was easily the teams best prospect going into last year.

    This year it is now Chabot or white.

    Disagree. I voted for Stone and continue to think that, at this time last season, he was the best prospect in the system. Draft position doesn't necessarily correlate to best prospect. I'm a believer that highest attainable upside is the best determining factor when choosing the best prospect.


    I didn't view Stone as a prospect going into last season and I was going by upside and not draft selection when saying Lazar was clear-cut the number one prospect. The organization viewed Lazar higher than Stone, though.

    I guess you're really sticking to the idea that a prospect is a player who has played fewer than 20 NHL games. I prefer aligning my definition of "prospect" with the rules set out in Calder eligibility. After 25 games in a season, you're eligible for a Calder trophy and ineligible (in my mind) of being considered a prospect. I think the 20 game thing is a bit silly. A player who plays 9 games, then gets returned to junior, then plays 11 games the next season as a callup, getting returned to the AHL after each stint, is still a prospect to me.

    Stone played 19 games in his longest NHL season, 24 games total (including 1 playoff game). I still considered him a prospect at this time last year. Lazar is no longer a prospect in my mind.

    well it's irrelevant now because Stone and Lazar have both made it, as you said. But still, there was no way I was going to not rank Lazar as the org's number one prospect.

    Right now the bigger issue is anyone ranking an average prospect like Lindberg over the super talented players we just selected in the first round.
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by wprager on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:26 pm


    Ev wrote:disagree with that. I don't see any way the organization would value Lindberg or Prince over White and Chabot. Lindberg shouldn't be in the conversation. Chabot would definitely be above Wikstrand I would say, but it might be close because I know they love Wikstrand. O'Connor, probably below them but he's a goalie and that's different altogether.

    What places Chabot above Wikstrand? His draft position? Once the draft is over they're both just prospects. Personally, I think Chabot will be a project, like Wiercioch (he took way longer than we initially thought). Lindberg came over to NA and dominated the OHL in his first year -- he sholdn't be in the conversation??

    NEELY, you better not read any more, you can't afford to get any dumber.


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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by spader on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:30 pm

    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Yes lazar was easily the teams best prospect going into last year.

    This year it is now Chabot or white.

    Disagree. I voted for Stone and continue to think that, at this time last season, he was the best prospect in the system. Draft position doesn't necessarily correlate to best prospect. I'm a believer that highest attainable upside is the best determining factor when choosing the best prospect.


    I didn't view Stone as a prospect going into last season and I was going by upside and not draft selection when saying Lazar was clear-cut the number one prospect. The organization viewed Lazar higher than Stone, though.

    I guess you're really sticking to the idea that a prospect is a player who has played fewer than 20 NHL games. I prefer aligning my definition of "prospect" with the rules set out in Calder eligibility. After 25 games in a season, you're eligible for a Calder trophy and ineligible (in my mind) of being considered a prospect. I think the 20 game thing is a bit silly. A player who plays 9 games, then gets returned to junior, then plays 11 games the next season as a callup, getting returned to the AHL after each stint, is still a prospect to me.

    Stone played 19 games in his longest NHL season, 24 games total (including 1 playoff game). I still considered him a prospect at this time last year. Lazar is no longer a prospect in my mind.

    well it's irrelevant now because Stone and Lazar have both made it, as you said. But still, there was no way I was going to not rank Lazar as the org's number one prospect.

    Right now the bigger issue is anyone ranking an average prospect like Lindberg over the super talented players we just selected in the first round.

    Before you get all judgemental, consider the fact that many Sens fans have been tracking players like Lindberg for a while and have only just begun digging into the players that are newer to us.
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by wprager on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:32 pm

    Puempel was a 21st overall, wasn't he? He certainly seems to be valued a little more by the organization than Prince, but production-wise they are very close. Puempel wins on personality/attitude (although, to be fair, I've also read that Prince has been exemplary lately).

    I doesn't matter very much where you were drafted (matters a little, sure, especially to the GM that drafted you). Lindberg has shown to be a better prospect than his initial draft position would seem to indicate.

    GMs love picks because it gives them a chance to show how smart they are. Everyone wants to think that they can pick better than someone else outside of that top-10 so they value 1st round picks higher than what history has shown.



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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by Ev on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:33 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:disagree with that. I don't see any way the organization would value Lindberg or Prince over White and Chabot. Lindberg shouldn't be in the conversation. Chabot would definitely be above Wikstrand I would say, but it might be close because I know they love Wikstrand. O'Connor, probably below them but he's a goalie and that's different altogether.

    What places Chabot above Wikstrand?  His draft position?  Once the draft is over they're both just prospects.  Personally, I think Chabot will be a project, like Wiercioch (he took way longer than we initially thought).  Lindberg came over to NA and dominated the OHL in his first year -- he sholdn't be in the conversation??

    NEELY, you better not read any more, you can't afford to get any dumber.

    Lol, he didn't dominate the OHL, and no he should not be in the conversation of top Sens prospect. He's not even close to the conversation.

    Even if Chabot is a project like Wiercioch, his pedigree and talent plus draft selection immediately puts him above Wikstrand and above most of our other prospects, if not all of them expect Puempel. Chabot won't be as long of a wait as he doesn't play NCAA like Wiercioch did.

    again i'm not sure you're understanding that this isn't about how long it will take them to make the NHL and be a star. But with Chabot, wouldn't surprise me at all to see him in the NHL next season like Ceci.

    I guarantee they have Chabot over Wikstrand in terms of value and upside.
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by Ev on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:34 pm

    wprager wrote:Puempel was a 21st overall, wasn't he?  He certainly seems to be valued a little more by the organization than Prince, but production-wise they are very close.  Puempel wins on personality/attitude (although, to be fair, I've also read that Prince has been exemplary lately).  

    I doesn't matter very much where you were drafted (matters a little, sure, especially to the GM that drafted you).  Lindberg has shown to be a better prospect than his initial draft position would seem to indicate.  

    GMs love picks because it gives them a chance to show how smart they are.  Everyone wants to think that they can pick better than someone else outside of that top-10 so they value 1st round picks higher than what history has shown.  


    Puempel has always been the better prospect in the organization's mind and in the hockey world.
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by Ev on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:36 pm

    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Yes lazar was easily the teams best prospect going into last year.

    This year it is now Chabot or white.

    Disagree. I voted for Stone and continue to think that, at this time last season, he was the best prospect in the system. Draft position doesn't necessarily correlate to best prospect. I'm a believer that highest attainable upside is the best determining factor when choosing the best prospect.


    I didn't view Stone as a prospect going into last season and I was going by upside and not draft selection when saying Lazar was clear-cut the number one prospect. The organization viewed Lazar higher than Stone, though.

    I guess you're really sticking to the idea that a prospect is a player who has played fewer than 20 NHL games. I prefer aligning my definition of "prospect" with the rules set out in Calder eligibility. After 25 games in a season, you're eligible for a Calder trophy and ineligible (in my mind) of being considered a prospect. I think the 20 game thing is a bit silly. A player who plays 9 games, then gets returned to junior, then plays 11 games the next season as a callup, getting returned to the AHL after each stint, is still a prospect to me.

    Stone played 19 games in his longest NHL season, 24 games total (including 1 playoff game). I still considered him a prospect at this time last year. Lazar is no longer a prospect in my mind.

    well it's irrelevant now because Stone and Lazar have both made it, as you said. But still, there was no way I was going to not rank Lazar as the org's number one prospect.

    Right now the bigger issue is anyone ranking an average prospect like Lindberg over the super talented players we just selected in the first round.

    Before you get all judgemental, consider the fact that many Sens fans have been tracking players like Lindberg for a while and have only just begun digging into the players that are newer to us.

    I'm not sure what you mean by this. You don't need to track the players that are new to us. You don't have to do any research. Your first round picks immediately jump to the top of your prospect rankings with your other true top prospects. The organization would say this as well. Players of this calibre immediately become part of your top group.


    Last edited by Ev on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by spader on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:36 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:disagree with that. I don't see any way the organization would value Lindberg or Prince over White and Chabot. Lindberg shouldn't be in the conversation. Chabot would definitely be above Wikstrand I would say, but it might be close because I know they love Wikstrand. O'Connor, probably below them but he's a goalie and that's different altogether.

    What places Chabot above Wikstrand?  His draft position?  Once the draft is over they're both just prospects.  Personally, I think Chabot will be a project, like Wiercioch (he took way longer than we initially thought).  Lindberg came over to NA and dominated the OHL in his first year -- he sholdn't be in the conversation??

    NEELY, you better not read any more, you can't afford to get any dumber.

    If I may interject (and I may, as that's how these boards work), I don't think Ev is correlating draft position directly to prospect ranking. I think he's suggesting that the draft position indicates a level of ability that can't be dismissed entirely. He also seems to be saying that the organization's ranking of these players is another factor to consider. Finally, since we all get way too high on most of the prospects the longer they stay in the Sens system, I think he's suggesting that we need to reassess when new players enter the fold.
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by wprager on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:36 pm

    Ev wrote:
    The organization viewed Lazar higher than Stone, though.

    You have absolutely *nothing* to support that claim. Zilch. Stone was a huge surprise the year he led the WJC team in scoring. By the time they picked Lazar, Stone was no-longer viewed as a 6th round pick with little chance to make it. He certainly surpassed their expectations in his first full season, but even so, to say that they viewed a 19 year old with zero pro experience higher is ludicrous.


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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by spader on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:36 pm

    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Yes lazar was easily the teams best prospect going into last year.

    This year it is now Chabot or white.

    Disagree. I voted for Stone and continue to think that, at this time last season, he was the best prospect in the system. Draft position doesn't necessarily correlate to best prospect. I'm a believer that highest attainable upside is the best determining factor when choosing the best prospect.


    I didn't view Stone as a prospect going into last season and I was going by upside and not draft selection when saying Lazar was clear-cut the number one prospect. The organization viewed Lazar higher than Stone, though.

    I guess you're really sticking to the idea that a prospect is a player who has played fewer than 20 NHL games. I prefer aligning my definition of "prospect" with the rules set out in Calder eligibility. After 25 games in a season, you're eligible for a Calder trophy and ineligible (in my mind) of being considered a prospect. I think the 20 game thing is a bit silly. A player who plays 9 games, then gets returned to junior, then plays 11 games the next season as a callup, getting returned to the AHL after each stint, is still a prospect to me.

    Stone played 19 games in his longest NHL season, 24 games total (including 1 playoff game). I still considered him a prospect at this time last year. Lazar is no longer a prospect in my mind.

    well it's irrelevant now because Stone and Lazar have both made it, as you said. But still, there was no way I was going to not rank Lazar as the org's number one prospect.

    Right now the bigger issue is anyone ranking an average prospect like Lindberg over the super talented players we just selected in the first round.

    Before you get all judgemental, consider the fact that many Sens fans have been tracking players like Lindberg for a while and have only just begun digging into the players that are newer to us.

    I'm not sure what you mean by this. You don't need to track the players that are new to us. You don't have to do any research. Your first round picks immediately jump to the top of your prospect rankings with your other true top prospects.

    Jim O'Brien.
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by Ev on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:38 pm

    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Yes lazar was easily the teams best prospect going into last year.

    This year it is now Chabot or white.

    Disagree. I voted for Stone and continue to think that, at this time last season, he was the best prospect in the system. Draft position doesn't necessarily correlate to best prospect. I'm a believer that highest attainable upside is the best determining factor when choosing the best prospect.


    I didn't view Stone as a prospect going into last season and I was going by upside and not draft selection when saying Lazar was clear-cut the number one prospect. The organization viewed Lazar higher than Stone, though.

    I guess you're really sticking to the idea that a prospect is a player who has played fewer than 20 NHL games. I prefer aligning my definition of "prospect" with the rules set out in Calder eligibility. After 25 games in a season, you're eligible for a Calder trophy and ineligible (in my mind) of being considered a prospect. I think the 20 game thing is a bit silly. A player who plays 9 games, then gets returned to junior, then plays 11 games the next season as a callup, getting returned to the AHL after each stint, is still a prospect to me.

    Stone played 19 games in his longest NHL season, 24 games total (including 1 playoff game). I still considered him a prospect at this time last year. Lazar is no longer a prospect in my mind.

    well it's irrelevant now because Stone and Lazar have both made it, as you said. But still, there was no way I was going to not rank Lazar as the org's number one prospect.

    Right now the bigger issue is anyone ranking an average prospect like Lindberg over the super talented players we just selected in the first round.

    Before you get all judgemental, consider the fact that many Sens fans have been tracking players like Lindberg for a while and have only just begun digging into the players that are newer to us.

    I'm not sure what you mean by this. You don't need to track the players that are new to us. You don't have to do any research. Your first round picks immediately jump to the top of your prospect rankings with your other true top prospects.

    Jim O'Brien.

    Jim O'brien was not the same kind of player talent or pedigree wise as Colin White or Thomas Chabot, plus that was a very late pick in a Dung draft with Muckler's scouts.

    But yes, he would have jumped to the top of the Sens prospects rankings at the time, so even if you think it's funny, it's still accurate
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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by wprager on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:39 pm

    spader wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:disagree with that. I don't see any way the organization would value Lindberg or Prince over White and Chabot. Lindberg shouldn't be in the conversation. Chabot would definitely be above Wikstrand I would say, but it might be close because I know they love Wikstrand. O'Connor, probably below them but he's a goalie and that's different altogether.

    What places Chabot above Wikstrand?  His draft position?  Once the draft is over they're both just prospects.  Personally, I think Chabot will be a project, like Wiercioch (he took way longer than we initially thought).  Lindberg came over to NA and dominated the OHL in his first year -- he sholdn't be in the conversation??

    NEELY, you better not read any more, you can't afford to get any dumber.

    If I may interject (and I may, as that's how these boards work), I don't think Ev is correlating draft position directly to prospect ranking. I think he's suggesting that the draft position indicates a level of ability that can't be dismissed entirely. He also seems to be saying that the organization's ranking of these players is another factor to consider. Finally, since we all get way too high on most of the prospects the longer they stay in the Sens system, I think he's suggesting that we need to reassess when new players enter the fold.

    He definitely correlated an unsubstantiated assertion that nobody would trade a 21st overall for Lindberg to him being rated lower. A GM may prefer a #21 overall but the reality -- even with these so-called deep drafts -- is that outside of the top-5 it's a crapshoot. Maybe top 10, maybe not (Brian Lee).


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    Re: Ottawa prospect Number 1

    Post by Ev on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:40 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    The organization viewed Lazar higher than Stone, though.

    You have absolutely *nothing* to support that claim.  Zilch.  Stone was a huge surprise the year he led the WJC team in scoring.  By the time they picked Lazar, Stone was no-longer viewed as a 6th round pick with little chance to make it.  He certainly surpassed their expectations in his first full season, but even so, to say that they viewed a 19 year old with zero pro experience higher is ludicrous.

    Wrong again. THN Future Watch specifically asks clubs to rank their prospects every year. Lazar was ahead of Stone.

    for the 100th time you're not realizing that age and pro experience means nothing when talking about who your top prospect is. That would be like saying Draisaitl is a better prospect than McDavid.

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