GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

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    wprager
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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by wprager on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:56 pm

    NEELY wrote:
    wprager wrote:Saying your leading goal scorer is the most replaceable player up-front is pretty ridiculous.  But, whatever, I can see your point if I look past all the hyperbole.

    Sill, I think it's worth trying to fix his faults rather than expect Chiasson to somehow start scoring 20+ goals.  Peumpel has had a dozen games and 2 goals -- sorry, as much as I liked his game that's too small sample size.  Lazar has finally shown his scoring touch  -- only has he, really?  Lazar is likely in Bingo to start next season.  Why not try Hoffman with Pageau/Condra while Lazar is in the AHL.  Who knows what might happen.  At the very least his stock probably goes up as he could finish for the other two.

    P.S. Pageau scoring 20 easily?  Since when?  He's got 7 in 47 this year playing fantastic hockey.  I don't know if he can play better than he has or even keep it up for an 82 game season.  He's got 11 goals in 84 career games -- think it's a bit early to anoint him a 20-goal scorer.

    The future is bright but they aren't yet guaranteed the President's Trophy.

    Hoffman scored a lot of goals when the pressure was off and the games (optics) didn't seem to matter.  As the games got harder and more important he's kind of cooled off and hasn't done much of anything.

    Spezza lead the team in points forever but they were right to get rid of him and they are a better team today and for the next decade because of it.  Like I said, numbers lie and stats are not facts.

    Depth, 23 guys all pulling the same way, and trust in all your players.  That's what wins and I question whether Hoffman can fall into that.

    I didn't want to draw this out but check the stats before you post, please.

    Hoffman has 4 GWG; Turris leads with 6, Stone and Ryan have 5. Don't forget the icetime Hoffman gets, though, compared to the others. Oh, and I'm pretty sure one of Turris' ENGs (he has a whopping *5*) ended up being a GWG.

    He's got one OT goal, tied for the team lead (and don't forget the icetime).

    He leads the team by a wide margin in ES goals -- a stat you've used as a measuring stick in the past. Much harder to score ES than PP, right? Well, maybe not on the Sens.

    He's heads and shoulders above everyone on the team in goals scored when tied, and second to Zibanejad in goals when down by 1 (4 vs. 5 for Ziba).

    He's not the cat's meow and I'm not pushing for building our offense around him, but he's not nearly as useless as you are stating. He *does* need linemates who will cover up his mistakes, of course, but then so do most players making under $8M.

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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by NEELY on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:56 pm

    wprager wrote:
    NEELY wrote:
    wprager wrote:Saying your leading goal scorer is the most replaceable player up-front is pretty ridiculous.  But, whatever, I can see your point if I look past all the hyperbole.

    Sill, I think it's worth trying to fix his faults rather than expect Chiasson to somehow start scoring 20+ goals.  Peumpel has had a dozen games and 2 goals -- sorry, as much as I liked his game that's too small sample size.  Lazar has finally shown his scoring touch  -- only has he, really?  Lazar is likely in Bingo to start next season.  Why not try Hoffman with Pageau/Condra while Lazar is in the AHL.  Who knows what might happen.  At the very least his stock probably goes up as he could finish for the other two.

    P.S. Pageau scoring 20 easily?  Since when?  He's got 7 in 47 this year playing fantastic hockey.  I don't know if he can play better than he has or even keep it up for an 82 game season.  He's got 11 goals in 84 career games -- think it's a bit early to anoint him a 20-goal scorer.

    The future is bright but they aren't yet guaranteed the President's Trophy.

    Hoffman scored a lot of goals when the pressure was off and the games (optics) didn't seem to matter.  As the games got harder and more important he's kind of cooled off and hasn't done much of anything.

    Spezza lead the team in points forever but they were right to get rid of him and they are a better team today and for the next decade because of it.  Like I said, numbers lie and stats are not facts.

    Depth, 23 guys all pulling the same way, and trust in all your players.  That's what wins and I question whether Hoffman can fall into that.

    I didn't want to draw this out but check the stats before you post, please.

    Hoffman has 4 GWG;  Turris leads with 6, Stone and Ryan have 5.  Don't forget the icetime Hoffman gets, though, compared to the others.  Oh, and I'm pretty sure one of Turris' ENGs (he has a whopping *5*) ended up being a GWG.

    He's got one OT goal, tied for the team lead (and don't forget the icetime).  

    He leads the team by a wide margin in ES goals -- a stat you've used as a measuring stick in the past.  Much harder to score ES than PP, right?  Well, maybe not on the Sens.

    He's heads and shoulders above everyone on the team in goals scored when tied, and second to Zibanejad in goals when down by 1 (4 vs. 5 for Ziba).  

    He's not the cat's meow and I'm not pushing for building our offense around him, but he's not nearly as useless as you are stating.  He *does* need linemates who will cover up his mistakes, of course, but then so do most players making under $8M.

    How about I don't and I just stay correct?

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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by wprager on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:58 pm

    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:Saying your leading goal scorer is the most replaceable player up-front is pretty ridiculous.  But, whatever, I can see your point if I look past all the hyperbole.

    Sill, I think it's worth trying to fix his faults rather than expect Chiasson to somehow start scoring 20+ goals.  Peumpel has had a dozen games and 2 goals -- sorry, as much as I liked his game that's too small sample size.  Lazar has finally shown his scoring touch  -- only has he, really?  Lazar is likely in Bingo to start next season.  Why not try Hoffman with Pageau/Condra while Lazar is in the AHL.  Who knows what might happen.  At the very least his stock probably goes up as he could finish for the other two.

    P.S. Pageau scoring 20 easily?  Since when?  He's got 7 in 47 this year playing fantastic hockey.  I don't know if he can play better than he has or even keep it up for an 82 game season.  He's got 11 goals in 84 career games -- think it's a bit early to anoint him a 20-goal scorer.

    The future is bright but they aren't yet guaranteed the President's Trophy.

    Is Hoffman even close to being the leading goal scorer during this run? Once Hammond took over?

    Stone's been one of the biggest point producers in the *league* since January. So, no. But then as I wrote in the previous post, Hoffman has 4 game winners to Stone's 5, while getting less ice time. True, Stone is rising to the top when things are getting grittier, but without Hoffman's 4 GWG we are 10 points pack instead of just 2.
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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by wprager on Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:02 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:Looks like it just missed.

    "Looks like" when no pictures/video have been posted. Not saying he's wrong or you're wrong, but no matter what I want to see the overhead shot.


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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by Ev on Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:06 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:Saying your leading goal scorer is the most replaceable player up-front is pretty ridiculous.  But, whatever, I can see your point if I look past all the hyperbole.

    Sill, I think it's worth trying to fix his faults rather than expect Chiasson to somehow start scoring 20+ goals.  Peumpel has had a dozen games and 2 goals -- sorry, as much as I liked his game that's too small sample size.  Lazar has finally shown his scoring touch  -- only has he, really?  Lazar is likely in Bingo to start next season.  Why not try Hoffman with Pageau/Condra while Lazar is in the AHL.  Who knows what might happen.  At the very least his stock probably goes up as he could finish for the other two.

    P.S. Pageau scoring 20 easily?  Since when?  He's got 7 in 47 this year playing fantastic hockey.  I don't know if he can play better than he has or even keep it up for an 82 game season.  He's got 11 goals in 84 career games -- think it's a bit early to anoint him a 20-goal scorer.

    The future is bright but they aren't yet guaranteed the President's Trophy.

    Is Hoffman even close to being the leading goal scorer during this run? Once Hammond took over?

    Stone's been one of the biggest point producers in the *league* since January.  So, no.  But then as I wrote in the previous post, Hoffman has 4 game winners to Stone's 5, while getting less ice time.  True, Stone is rising to the top when things are getting grittier, but without Hoffman's 4 GWG we are 10 points pack instead of just 2.  

    Lol game winning goals doesn't always mean without that goal we lose the game. You'd have to look at each goal to say that. I don't think players care about who has GWG or not.

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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by NEELY on Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:09 pm

    Prager uses stats for everything because he thinks they prove something. Stats are numbers and numbers lie. Watch the game, form an opinion, that's it. Stats can support an argument but only the uneducated use them to try and prove an opinion.

    Like last year for example... people trying to tell me how much Turris would struggle without Spezza and how Turris will never produce like Spezza. Stats were used to back this up one way or another. Guess what? Myself and others couldn't have been more correct if we wanted to and that was despite what the stats were lying about this time.
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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by wprager on Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:11 pm

    GWGs, goals while close, goals at ES are often used as measuring sticks. Hoffman leads the team by a wide margin in each category.

    Look, I'm not arguing to get him re-signed for 8 years at $5M but the hyperbole from NEELY is very largely just hyperbole.

    Like I said earlier, Hoffman is not nearly as useless as NEELY is saying. That absolutely does not mean he is core, or we must sign him (although signed he brings a better return) but it also means you have to be a little careful about saying things like "he's the most replaceable player up front". He isn't.


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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by wprager on Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:13 pm

    NEELY wrote:Prager uses stats for everything because he thinks they prove something.  Stats are numbers and numbers lie.  Watch the game, form an opinion, that's it.  Stats can support an argument but only the uneducated use them to try and prove an opinion.

    Like last year for example... people trying to tell me how much Turris would struggle without Spezza and how Turris will never produce like Spezza.  Stats were used to back this up one way or another.  Guess what?  Myself and others couldn't have been more correct if we wanted to and that was despite what the stats were lying about this time.

    And you use hyperbole for everything which just proves that you can be a giant cloud of hot gas.

    And Turris *did* struggle without Spezza. Until the emergence of Stone on that line Turris was nowhere near the payer he was last year. He's been great down the stretch, and you absolutely need people to step up. But you also cannot discount the contribution of the players who get you goals/wins early in the season. If you don't have a player who can play that way for 100+ games, then you simple need both types of the other players.


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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by NEELY on Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:34 pm

    Oh so Turris needed a player capable of being in the top 6 to produce? Go figure. Oh, Stone was only getting 10 mins a night under MacLean? You don't say.

    Shocker, talent needs talent to be successful. Which leads me to my next point, sometimes when players like Hoffman play with guys like Ryan and Zibanejad they tend to look a little better then they are and guess what? Maybe those stats are lying just a little. Hoffman without those two this year has been a passenger.

    Point being is the eye test is the one that matters and if we are talking about Hoffman then there are major red flags in his game. Not such a big deal when he's making league min on a 1 year deal. Huge deal when there are expectations and money to live up to.

    Hoffman has a long ways to go before he actually deserves the money he may very well get.
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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by rooneypoo on Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:06 pm

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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by TheAvatar on Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:46 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:I can agree with most f what's said but I wonder if moving hoffman is a good move. I would wait till after arbitration personally. If you are not satisfied with what happened you move him in a right deal. He's been nothing but cooperative in the past, he's ideal for a very productive 3rd line centred by Lazar eventually and can easily jump into the top 6 if need be. Chiasson is the piece that might get moved in a package if you ask me.

    As for Hammond a 1 year one way deal will be enough to retain him and see if lightning strikes twice.

    I thought you couldn't move a player for a set period of time after arbitration. Maybe it's just that you can't waive them ?
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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by spader on Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:58 pm

    Speaking of all that stuff above, how delicious is it that Turris currently has more points than Spezza?
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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by spader on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:01 pm

    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:Saying your leading goal scorer is the most replaceable player up-front is pretty ridiculous.  But, whatever, I can see your point if I look past all the hyperbole.

    Sill, I think it's worth trying to fix his faults rather than expect Chiasson to somehow start scoring 20+ goals.  Peumpel has had a dozen games and 2 goals -- sorry, as much as I liked his game that's too small sample size.  Lazar has finally shown his scoring touch  -- only has he, really?  Lazar is likely in Bingo to start next season.  Why not try Hoffman with Pageau/Condra while Lazar is in the AHL.  Who knows what might happen.  At the very least his stock probably goes up as he could finish for the other two.

    P.S. Pageau scoring 20 easily?  Since when?  He's got 7 in 47 this year playing fantastic hockey.  I don't know if he can play better than he has or even keep it up for an 82 game season.  He's got 11 goals in 84 career games -- think it's a bit early to anoint him a 20-goal scorer.

    The future is bright but they aren't yet guaranteed the President's Trophy.

    Is Hoffman even close to being the leading goal scorer during this run? Once Hammond took over?

    Stone's been one of the biggest point producers in the *league* since January.  So, no.  But then as I wrote in the previous post, Hoffman has 4 game winners to Stone's 5, while getting less ice time.  True, Stone is rising to the top when things are getting grittier, but without Hoffman's 4 GWG we are 10 points pack instead of just 2.  

    Lol game winning goals doesn't always mean without that goal we lose the game. You'd have to look at each goal to say that. I don't think players care about who has GWG or not.

    Disagree. "Clutch" players are the type that win games. Sometimes that's done with a GWG. I guarantee every player on the Kings considers Martinez a clutch player, and that's in part because of his GWG when it mattered.

    EDIT: FWIW, I also disagree with prags' assertion. Not scoring a GWG doesn't mean that the team loses. Come on.


    Last edited by spader on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by spader on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:02 pm

    TheAvatar wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:I can agree with most f what's said but I wonder if moving hoffman is a good move. I would wait till after arbitration personally. If you are not satisfied with what happened you move him in a right deal. He's been nothing but cooperative in the past, he's ideal for a very productive 3rd line centred by Lazar eventually and can easily jump into the top 6 if need be. Chiasson is the piece that might get moved in a package if you ask me.

    As for Hammond a 1 year one way deal will be enough to retain him and see if lightning strikes twice.

    I thought you couldn't move a player for a set period of time after arbitration.  Maybe it's just that you can't waive them ?

    I thought that was after an offer sheet. scratch

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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by NEELY on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:40 pm

    spader wrote:Speaking of all that stuff above, how delicious is it that Turris currently has more points than Spezza?

    Does he have more points than Spezza now? I checked last week and it was close but good to hear he's surpassed him.

    Whoa, hold on a minute here... how can Turris produce without Spezza? Yet produce more than Spezza? How can this be true? Everything I have been lead to believe is that with the increased pressure and talent Turris faces each night will effect his production and he won't be able to carry Spezza's sticks?

    Oh yah, people are stupid. Oh yah, Turris has been a better play than Spezza for a while. And oh yah, people are really stupid.


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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by NEELY on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:41 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:

    I've grown fond of Prager over the years but yah, this is appropriate.
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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by wprager on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:58 pm

    Say what you will, but overblown hyperbole is what you are known for. Most of us can sift through all that and find the actual message, but sometimes its just a bit over the top.

    The team is struggling scoring goals, especially since Ryan and Hoffman have cooled off (giant understatement there). Stone has certainly replaced some of that offense but let's not kid ourselves, they've been winning primarily because Hammond has been giving up 2 or fewer goals. When he gives up 3 they've struggled.

    If you can turn Cowen+Hoffman+ into a ROR, great! But I doubt that happens.


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    Re: GDT: Sens @ Leafs - Sunday, Apr 5th, 7:30pm, City

    Post by NEELY on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:58 pm

    I also think I still have a concussion from the sky falling when Hemsky and Spezza up and left. So maybe this whole Ottawa Senators close to the season is just a figment of my imagination.

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