The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

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    rooneypoo
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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by rooneypoo on Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:22 am

    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:Bottom line - where do people, must importantly our brass - see this team next year?  A contender?  A playoff team?  A fringe playoff team?  

    If they truly think the time has come, you need to make some key acquisitions.  

    This team should be a playoff team but, certainly not a contender.  Anderson absolutely should be traded now.  I agree with Ev.  It's interesting how everything is, what have you done for me lately.  Anderson has his annual injury vacation, is a head case and his value is right to trade him.  If you think the Sens brass are going to make enough acquisitions to make this team a cup contender you're dreaming in technicolour.  Some players will have set backs.  They are going to remain patient with this team and if that's the case this is not a Cup contender and is merely a playoff team that should win a round.

    If you're a playoff team, then you're a contender, plain and simple. No one sits around plotting to have a 1-2 round playoff team. Either you're building towards something, or you're reached it and going to try to do something with it.

    I can see the case for trading either guy, and it's certainly not cut and dried either way. Whatever else Anderson is, he is also the best goalie, hands down, we've had since at least Hasek, and is probably legitimately a top 3 goalie we've had in franchise history. Lehner has all the potential in the world, but he has done -- how to put this delicately -- absolutely nothing since the 2012 AHL championship. He has not progressed in spite of the many opportunities he's had to take the #1 spot, and what's worse, he's show some 'tude along the way, throwing his teammates under the bus at times when they lose and giving his Dmen the stink eye at other times when a puck deflects in in front of the net. We're not close enough to know it, but I would be very interested in hearing teammates off the record on the subject of Lehner, because I'm not entirely sure he'd be inside their top 2 in terms of goalies they'd want on their roster. And that matters a lot.

    Honestly, for this team to be a contender, what's needed, after re-signing the guys we have now (i.e., Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Chiasson, Zbad, maybe Condra), is 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward. We will actually have some desirable pieces to move, too, to bring in 1-2 pieces via trade...  Cowen/a goalie/maybe Hoffman or Chiasson/Neil/Legwand/Gryba as potential trading pieces, plus picks etc., and you've got prolly one LTIR (Phillips) and one buyout/demotion (Greening). Or you make one trade for a forward and sign one UFA D. This is not an ambitious or pie in the sky plan. The 1 X factor is what's it going to take to re-sign Stone, Hoffman, and Zbad... Pageau, Chiasson, and Condra will not be pricey, but I could see longer, pricier deals for Stone especially and maybe Zbad.

    As for the Budget... see below.

    Good luck to you then.  If you honestly believe your suggestions will be enough for this team to be in the finals and win then I don't think I can say much to you.  Apparently it's all or nothing for you.  You're either a playoff team and you are making it to the final or you're not.  Not that cut and dried.  GMs say all the time that this is a playoff team or this is a team that can go deep or this is a team that can win a round or two or this is a cup contender.  It's not playoffs equals Stanley cup finals or you just don't make it at all.

    This is a team that went 20-3-3 down the stretch to make the playoffs. Of course they're a contender and for real.

    As for the definitional thing, find me one GM in the history of the league who ever said, "I'm building a team to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two." No, you're rebuilding or you're contending, and any GM who watched this team for the last three months has got to think we've turned that corner. And yes, I think we are absolutely 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward from being legit contenders. The only real force in the east is NYR, that's it -- otherwise, the conference is wide open, especially with PIT and BOS on the decline. Do I think this team, with those two additions, could compete with any team in the east excepting maybe NYR? Absolutely. The current version of the Sens would have given any team in the east a run for its money in a playoff series as it is.

    I think your hopes for this team are more than a little off.  You're setting yourself up for a big dissapointment if you think the Sens are making the Conference Finals next season.

    What are you talking about? Is STL any less of a contender because they bowed out in round 1? Or NYI? Of course not. By your definition of "contender," there are about 2 teams (CHI, NYR) who are "contenders", and even last year's champs aren't in the group. The definition is circular -- viz., you can be a contender if you haven't already been to the cup finals on multiple occasions. A contending team is one that has a legitimate shot of taking its conference, that's it. After NYR, what other team in the east seriously outclasses OTT? None.

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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by PTFlea on Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:22 am

    Watching our series, then watching the 2nd and 3rd of the Game 7 of the Isles and Caps, you need big dudes who can throw their weight around too. Might need to get bigger up front.

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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:37 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:Bottom line - where do people, must importantly our brass - see this team next year?  A contender?  A playoff team?  A fringe playoff team?  

    If they truly think the time has come, you need to make some key acquisitions.  

    This team should be a playoff team but, certainly not a contender.  Anderson absolutely should be traded now.  I agree with Ev.  It's interesting how everything is, what have you done for me lately.  Anderson has his annual injury vacation, is a head case and his value is right to trade him.  If you think the Sens brass are going to make enough acquisitions to make this team a cup contender you're dreaming in technicolour.  Some players will have set backs.  They are going to remain patient with this team and if that's the case this is not a Cup contender and is merely a playoff team that should win a round.

    If you're a playoff team, then you're a contender, plain and simple. No one sits around plotting to have a 1-2 round playoff team. Either you're building towards something, or you're reached it and going to try to do something with it.

    I can see the case for trading either guy, and it's certainly not cut and dried either way. Whatever else Anderson is, he is also the best goalie, hands down, we've had since at least Hasek, and is probably legitimately a top 3 goalie we've had in franchise history. Lehner has all the potential in the world, but he has done -- how to put this delicately -- absolutely nothing since the 2012 AHL championship. He has not progressed in spite of the many opportunities he's had to take the #1 spot, and what's worse, he's show some 'tude along the way, throwing his teammates under the bus at times when they lose and giving his Dmen the stink eye at other times when a puck deflects in in front of the net. We're not close enough to know it, but I would be very interested in hearing teammates off the record on the subject of Lehner, because I'm not entirely sure he'd be inside their top 2 in terms of goalies they'd want on their roster. And that matters a lot.

    Honestly, for this team to be a contender, what's needed, after re-signing the guys we have now (i.e., Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Chiasson, Zbad, maybe Condra), is 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward. We will actually have some desirable pieces to move, too, to bring in 1-2 pieces via trade...  Cowen/a goalie/maybe Hoffman or Chiasson/Neil/Legwand/Gryba as potential trading pieces, plus picks etc., and you've got prolly one LTIR (Phillips) and one buyout/demotion (Greening). Or you make one trade for a forward and sign one UFA D. This is not an ambitious or pie in the sky plan. The 1 X factor is what's it going to take to re-sign Stone, Hoffman, and Zbad... Pageau, Chiasson, and Condra will not be pricey, but I could see longer, pricier deals for Stone especially and maybe Zbad.

    As for the Budget... see below.

    Good luck to you then.  If you honestly believe your suggestions will be enough for this team to be in the finals and win then I don't think I can say much to you.  Apparently it's all or nothing for you.  You're either a playoff team and you are making it to the final or you're not.  Not that cut and dried.  GMs say all the time that this is a playoff team or this is a team that can go deep or this is a team that can win a round or two or this is a cup contender.  It's not playoffs equals Stanley cup finals or you just don't make it at all.

    This is a team that went 20-3-3 down the stretch to make the playoffs. Of course they're a contender and for real.

    As for the definitional thing, find me one GM in the history of the league who ever said, "I'm building a team to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two." No, you're rebuilding or you're contending, and any GM who watched this team for the last three months has got to think we've turned that corner. And yes, I think we are absolutely 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward from being legit contenders. The only real force in the east is NYR, that's it -- otherwise, the conference is wide open, especially with PIT and BOS on the decline. Do I think this team, with those two additions, could compete with any team in the east excepting maybe NYR? Absolutely. The current version of the Sens would have given any team in the east a run for its money in a playoff series as it is.

    I think your hopes for this team are more than a little off.  You're setting yourself up for a big dissapointment if you think the Sens are making the Conference Finals next season.

    What are you talking about? Is STL any less of a contender because they bowed out in round 1? Or NYI? Of course not. By your definition of "contender," there are about 2 teams (CHI, NYR) who are "contenders", and even last year's champs aren't in the group. The definition is circular -- viz., you can be a contender if you haven't already been to the cup finals on multiple occasions. A contending team is one that has a legitimate shot of taking its conference, that's it. After NYR, what other team in the east seriously outclasses OTT? None.

    In the east I can see Tampa, NYR ahead of Ottawa and I also think that NYI will take a step forward as well. Washington, with Ovechkin playing well could and likely will be ahead of Ottawa as well.
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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by PTFlea on Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:58 am

    We'll be taking a step forward as well though. We're there with TB and the Isles IMO. Depending on which goalie we choose. Ahhhhh!
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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by wprager on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:52 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:Watching our series, then watching the 2nd and 3rd of the Game 7 of the Isles and Caps, you need big dudes who can throw their weight around too.  Might need to get bigger up front.

    There isn't a dude bigger or heavier in the league than the boards. If you are quicker to the puck you can get out of the way and let them try to leave an impression. It only works if you connect and get there before the breakout pass is made. Other wise you are risking personal injury *and* an odd-man rush the other way.


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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by PTFlea on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:57 pm

    wprager wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:Watching our series, then watching the 2nd and 3rd of the Game 7 of the Isles and Caps, you need big dudes who can throw their weight around too.  Might need to get bigger up front.

    There isn't a dude bigger or heavier in the league than the boards.  If you are quicker to the puck you can get out of the way and let them try to leave an impression.  It only works if you connect and get there before the breakout pass is made.  Other wise you are risking personal injury *and* an odd-man rush the other way.

    The bigger guys who are the most aggressive are what was needed in the Caps/Isles series, make no mistake about that. They were hitting to destroy in that series. And our series wasn't much different. That's the argument for and against a Hoffman more than anything else.
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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by wprager on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:00 pm

    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    In the east I can see Tampa, NYR ahead of Ottawa and I also think that NYI will take a step forward as well.  Washington, with Ovechkin playing well could and likely will be ahead of Ottawa as well.  

    Bottom line is that for 3/4 of the season there were plenty of teams that were ahead of Ottawa, and it wasn't even close. That run they went on was a hell of a ride and we knew it was not sustainable. We are better than the .500 team we were under MacLean and we are not as good as the last 25-30 games of the season. We lost in 6 games to what I would consider a mediocre Montreal team. Sure, if Ryan was not injured, if Hammond and Anderson did not give up weak OT goals, if Zibanejad had been a LHS, if Bread Watson was behind the goal and not in the friggin' corner, if Subban didn't break Stone's wrist, if Hammond didn't duck away from Subban's shot, if they got more players in front in G6, if if if if if. Fact is we fell short. Fact is Hoffman is not likely to get 27 goals again. Fact is we pretty much know Hammond is not going to be a career sub-2.00 goalie. Fact is injuries happen. Etc. Etc.

    I fully expect the Sens to improve next year, but without another fantastic, all-time-record setting streak that may very well mean that we just clinch the Wildcard spot earlier.


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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by rooneypoo on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:02 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:We'll be taking a step forward as well though.  We're there with TB and the Isles IMO.  Depending on which goalie we choose.  Ahhhhh!

    And what does that tell you? That we're a legitimate, contending team with a legitimate shot of making the final 4. Clutch is confusing elite near-dynasty teams with contenders. Playoff teams are contenders. Perennial final 4 teams are elite or dynasty teams, and they're rare and the exception.

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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:38 pm

    I think we're on the cusp of being a contender. Ottawa underperformed for 50+ games this year but still managed to beat the best teams in the West and squeeze into the playoffs. Our issue has been consistency, inexperience, and putting the right people in the game at the right times.

    Even with Ryan underperforming, the depth on this team carried them into the playoffs. Now all of a sudden you have a backup goaltender that came out of nowhere, a budding star in Stone, a potential 30 goal scorer in Hoffman, a 3rd/4th line energy center in Pageau, and a ton of potential still on the table for Lazar and Zib.

    This also creates moveable assets. Someone (Calgary?) will want Neil, Cowen and Lehner in Buffalo make sense (for Zadorov and a 2nd?), Chiasson is an RFA with a controllable contract, Legwand has one year left on his deal, and we still have Wideman, Puempel, Prince and potentially Nick Paul who are NHL ready. We also have rights to Da Costa if we want to trade them and/or have a spot for him.

    Things are looking good. I'd much prefer Wiercioch being a #5 with Boro and carrying Wideman as the #7, opening up a spot for someone to play with Ceci, and on the offensive side I'd let Puempel slip in, get rid of Neil, Chiasson, Smith, Legwand, Greening if possible, and see if you can add a scorer who can play on the left side or even 3rd line RW.
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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by Hoags on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:38 pm

    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    Hoags wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:Well, if they don't trade Anderson in the off season then do it before the trade deadline.  Lehner is capable of taking the job.  Sure, wait until he's recovered of course but, move Anderson after that.

    Maybe at the deadline at the earliest.  Personally I think Lehner has a higher chance of being dealt than Andy.

    If they sign O'Connor then someone is gone for sure before training camp.

    You're willing to assume that O'Connor will be a stud goalie but not Lehner?  How old is O'Connor?  Do you think he'll be ready to step in when Anderson is no longer a viable starter?

    They're trying to sign o'Connor and told him we'd trade a goalie to make room.

    Murray isn't the type of GM to trade someone not long after signing an extension. He's loyal to a fault.

    This is just what I think will happen.

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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:39 pm

    Karlsson/Methot could be the best D pairing in the East, and Wiercioch/Boro could be the best 5/6 combo (dollar and skillwise). Find someone who can play with Ceci and our D all of a sudden looks really good.

    We have depth in nets

    So look at getting rid of some contracts and improving that 4th line. We could be one of the best teams in the east next year.
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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:42 pm

    Hoags wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    Hoags wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:Well, if they don't trade Anderson in the off season then do it before the trade deadline.  Lehner is capable of taking the job.  Sure, wait until he's recovered of course but, move Anderson after that.

    Maybe at the deadline at the earliest.  Personally I think Lehner has a higher chance of being dealt than Andy.

    If they sign O'Connor then someone is gone for sure before training camp.

    You're willing to assume that O'Connor will be a stud goalie but not Lehner?  How old is O'Connor?  Do you think he'll be ready to step in when Anderson is no longer a viable starter?

    They're trying to sign o'Connor and told him we'd trade a goalie to make room.

    Murray isn't the type of GM to trade someone not long after signing an extension.  He's loyal to a fault.

    This is just what I think will happen.

    Just guessing, of course, but O'Connor already ruled out Buffalo so maybe there is increased interest in Lehner there? Not saying O'Connor is as good as Lehner, just saying that Buffalo needs a goaler and Lehner might be the guy.

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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:43 pm

    Hoags wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    Hoags wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:Well, if they don't trade Anderson in the off season then do it before the trade deadline.  Lehner is capable of taking the job.  Sure, wait until he's recovered of course but, move Anderson after that.

    Maybe at the deadline at the earliest.  Personally I think Lehner has a higher chance of being dealt than Andy.

    If they sign O'Connor then someone is gone for sure before training camp.

    You're willing to assume that O'Connor will be a stud goalie but not Lehner?  How old is O'Connor?  Do you think he'll be ready to step in when Anderson is no longer a viable starter?

    They're trying to sign o'Connor and told him we'd trade a goalie to make room.

    Murray isn't the type of GM to trade someone not long after signing an extension.  He's loyal to a fault.

    This is just what I think will happen.

    Lehner is gone. He's had multiple chances to sieze his opportunities and has fallen flat on his face each time. Hammond was given one chance and dominated. Ya he's a few years older, but like you've been saying, Lehner isn't exactly the best teammate and seems to immature and reckless to lead this team. I understand his upside is still very high but I'm much more comfortable with Hammond than I am with Lehner, and think the team probably feels the same way.

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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:45 pm

    Lehner to Buffalo would drive up his price seeing that it's within the division. I'd want a player back, or a two for one and a pick since Ottawa isn't looking to add bodies without getting rid of some first.
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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:54 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:We'll be taking a step forward as well though.  We're there with TB and the Isles IMO.  Depending on which goalie we choose.  Ahhhhh!

    And what does that tell you? That we're a legitimate, contending team with a legitimate shot of making the final 4. Clutch is confusing elite near-dynasty teams with contenders. Playoff teams are contenders. Perennial final 4 teams are elite or dynasty teams, and they're rare and the exception.

    Based on the premis that we're right there with TB and the Isles? I disagree with that premis personally so my point stands even based on your logic of what defines a contending team with a legit shot at the final 4. At this point we're now just disagreeing on the premis.


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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by wprager on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:04 pm

    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:We'll be taking a step forward as well though.  We're there with TB and the Isles IMO.  Depending on which goalie we choose.  Ahhhhh!

    And what does that tell you? That we're a legitimate, contending team with a legitimate shot of making the final 4. Clutch is confusing elite near-dynasty teams with contenders. Playoff teams are contenders. Perennial final 4 teams are elite or dynasty teams, and they're rare and the exception.

    Based on the premis that we're right there with TB and the Isles?  I disagree with that premis personally so my point stands even based on your logic of what defines a contending team with a legit shot at the final 4.  At this point we're now just disagreeing on the premis.

    "premis" -- is that French?


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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by Ev on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:06 pm

    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    Hoags wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:
    Hoags wrote:
    Cap'n Clutch wrote:Well, if they don't trade Anderson in the off season then do it before the trade deadline.  Lehner is capable of taking the job.  Sure, wait until he's recovered of course but, move Anderson after that.

    Maybe at the deadline at the earliest.  Personally I think Lehner has a higher chance of being dealt than Andy.

    If they sign O'Connor then someone is gone for sure before training camp.

    You're willing to assume that O'Connor will be a stud goalie but not Lehner?  How old is O'Connor?  Do you think he'll be ready to step in when Anderson is no longer a viable starter?

    They're trying to sign o'Connor and told him we'd trade a goalie to make room.

    Murray isn't the type of GM to trade someone not long after signing an extension.  He's loyal to a fault.

    This is just what I think will happen.

    Lehner is gone. He's had multiple chances to sieze his opportunities and has fallen flat on his face each time. Hammond was given one chance and dominated. Ya he's a few years older, but like you've been saying, Lehner isn't exactly the best teammate and seems to immature and reckless to lead this team. I understand his upside is still very high but I'm much more comfortable with Hammond than I am with Lehner, and think the team probably feels the same way.

    Hammond might have gone on that run but you won't find many who would take him over Lehner IMO. Lehner was beginning a similar run a year ago but MacLean went back to Anderson.
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    Re: The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

    Post by wprager on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:08 pm

    Sorry, as much as I agree PMac should have let it ride back then, it was 3 games and not NHL-record tying numbers.


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