GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

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    rooneypoo
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:51 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:Not sure why it takes more than 48 hours.  Must be a reason

    Yeah. It's the long weekend, and that means lots of beer and sunshine. Laugh1

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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by rooneypoo on Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:54 pm

    Ev wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:My opinion is that if the number is something the Sens can live with, then they will buy out Greening and promote Puempel.  If it goes to arb and is north of 3 then the will move Hoffman, keep Greening and promote Pumpel.  Either way I believe they have a higher opinion of Pumpel than Hoffman.

    My opinion is that Hoffman is 100% a part of this team next year regardless of how this plays out, with the only other option being trading him out for an upgrade. I believe the idea that we'd give up good talent over a few 100k's is laughable considering what the last 12 months have shown us. But that's me.

    in this case I think it would be about getting rid of a bad apple in the room more than anything

    Maybe. Kinda feel like that would have happened before now if that were the case. In any event, the idea that we're going to ship a guy off solely over a few 100 Ks is pretty hilarious. But here we go again, Budget!!! explains all.

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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by wprager on Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:29 am

    Could be as simple as the arbitrator having a "day job" and he was busy Friday/Saturday.

    But we all know the reason is the most obvious one -- budget.
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by tim1_2 on Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:52 am

    rooneypoo wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:My opinion is that if the number is something the Sens can live with, then they will buy out Greening and promote Puempel.  If it goes to arb and is north of 3 then the will move Hoffman, keep Greening and promote Pumpel.  Either way I believe they have a higher opinion of Pumpel than Hoffman.

    My opinion is that Hoffman is 100% a part of this team next year regardless of how this plays out, with the only other option being trading him out for an upgrade. I believe the idea that we'd give up good talent over a few 100k's is laughable considering what the last 12 months have shown us. But that's me.

    in this case I think it would be about getting rid of a bad apple in the room more than anything

    Maybe. Kinda feel like that would have happened before now if that were the case. In any event, the idea that we're going to ship a guy off solely over a few 100 Ks is pretty hilarious. But here we go again, Budget!!! explains all.

    You do know that nobody mentioned anything about the budget except for you?
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by rooneypoo on Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:53 am

    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:My opinion is that if the number is something the Sens can live with, then they will buy out Greening and promote Puempel.  If it goes to arb and is north of 3 then the will move Hoffman, keep Greening and promote Pumpel.  Either way I believe they have a higher opinion of Pumpel than Hoffman.

    My opinion is that Hoffman is 100% a part of this team next year regardless of how this plays out, with the only other option being trading him out for an upgrade. I believe the idea that we'd give up good talent over a few 100k's is laughable considering what the last 12 months have shown us. But that's me.

    in this case I think it would be about getting rid of a bad apple in the room more than anything

    Maybe. Kinda feel like that would have happened before now if that were the case. In any event, the idea that we're going to ship a guy off solely over a few 100 Ks is pretty hilarious. But here we go again, Budget!!! explains all.

    You do know that nobody mentioned anything about the budget except for you?

    Have you read the posts quoted here? Can you provide another explanation that isn't about money for the assertion that the org would be happy to keep Hoffman "at a number they can live with" but then would ship him off and play *cough* Greening if the salary figure "went north of 3 million"? What, that would be triggered by moral outrage instead? Or management has an irrational phobia for the number 3?
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by wprager on Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:11 am

    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:My opinion is that if the number is something the Sens can live with, then they will buy out Greening and promote Puempel.  If it goes to arb and is north of 3 then the will move Hoffman, keep Greening and promote Pumpel.  Either way I believe they have a higher opinion of Pumpel than Hoffman.

    My opinion is that Hoffman is 100% a part of this team next year regardless of how this plays out, with the only other option being trading him out for an upgrade. I believe the idea that we'd give up good talent over a few 100k's is laughable considering what the last 12 months have shown us. But that's me.

    in this case I think it would be about getting rid of a bad apple in the room more than anything

    Maybe. Kinda feel like that would have happened before now if that were the case. In any event, the idea that we're going to ship a guy off solely over a few 100 Ks is pretty hilarious. But here we go again, Budget!!! explains all.

    You do know that nobody mentioned anything about the budget except for you?

    Umm, check the post just above yours.


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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by wprager on Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:30 am

    Buying our Greening will save $1,758,334 in 2015/16. Puempel and Prince, together, are $1,563,333. Lazar saves another $894,166 if you don't want to carry the minimum 12 forwards. Don't forget that someone else might surprised at camp and push for a spot.

    It's a safe assumption that Hoffman will get more than Greening's $2.65M so Greening will be the 7th highest paid forward. His buyout will save the team the combined salaries of any two of the following players: Pageu, Puemple, Prince, Lazar, or (nearly) cover the salary of any one of Neil, Smith or Chiasson. Greening, quite literally, has to be better than all of the bottom-six contenders in order to justify not being bought out by the club. If the Sens (Murray, really) are at all fiscally responsible then they will have to buy out Greening.


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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by Oglethorpe on Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:23 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:My opinion is that if the number is something the Sens can live with, then they will buy out Greening and promote Puempel.  If it goes to arb and is north of 3 then the will move Hoffman, keep Greening and promote Pumpel.  Either way I believe they have a higher opinion of Pumpel than Hoffman.

    My opinion is that Hoffman is 100% a part of this team next year regardless of how this plays out, with the only other option being trading him out for an upgrade. I believe the idea that we'd give up good talent over a few 100k's is laughable considering what the last 12 months have shown us. But that's me.

    in this case I think it would be about getting rid of a bad apple in the room more than anything

    Maybe. Kinda feel like that would have happened before now if that were the case. In any event, the idea that we're going to ship a guy off solely over a few 100 Ks is pretty hilarious. But here we go again, Budget!!! explains all.

    You do know that nobody mentioned anything about the budget except for you?

    Have you read the posts quoted here? Can you provide another explanation that isn't about money for the assertion that the org would be happy to keep Hoffman "at a number they can live with" but then would ship him off and play *cough* Greening if the salary figure "went north of 3 million"? What, that would be triggered by moral outrage instead? Or management has an irrational phobia for the number 3?
    It's about where they value him in relation to other inexperienced players.
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by Oglethorpe on Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:25 pm

    wprager wrote:Buying our Greening will save $1,758,334 in 2015/16.  Puempel and Prince, together, are $1,563,333.  Lazar saves another $894,166 if you don't want to carry the minimum 12 forwards.  Don't forget that someone else might surprised at camp and push for a spot.  

    It's a safe assumption that Hoffman will get more than Greening's $2.65M so Greening will be the 7th highest paid forward.  His buyout will save the team the combined salaries of any two of the following players: Pageu, Puemple, Prince, Lazar, or (nearly) cover the salary of any one of Neil, Smith or Chiasson.  Greening, quite literally, has to be better than all of the bottom-six contenders in order to justify not being bought out by the club.  If the Sens (Murray, really) are at all fiscally responsible then they will have to buy out Greening.
    Ideally you would eat 1M for the next two years to trade him, but who knows if that would be enough to entice someone.
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by rooneypoo on Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:54 am

    Oglethorpe wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:My opinion is that if the number is something the Sens can live with, then they will buy out Greening and promote Puempel.  If it goes to arb and is north of 3 then the will move Hoffman, keep Greening and promote Pumpel.  Either way I believe they have a higher opinion of Pumpel than Hoffman.

    My opinion is that Hoffman is 100% a part of this team next year regardless of how this plays out, with the only other option being trading him out for an upgrade. I believe the idea that we'd give up good talent over a few 100k's is laughable considering what the last 12 months have shown us. But that's me.

    in this case I think it would be about getting rid of a bad apple in the room more than anything

    Maybe. Kinda feel like that would have happened before now if that were the case. In any event, the idea that we're going to ship a guy off solely over a few 100 Ks is pretty hilarious. But here we go again, Budget!!! explains all.

    You do know that nobody mentioned anything about the budget except for you?

    Have you read the posts quoted here? Can you provide another explanation that isn't about money for the assertion that the org would be happy to keep Hoffman "at a number they can live with" but then would ship him off and play *cough* Greening if the salary figure "went north of 3 million"? What, that would be triggered by moral outrage instead? Or management has an irrational phobia for the number 3?
    It's about where they value him in relation to other inexperienced players.  

    I just don't see it. What you're saying is that we'd rather skate Greening, who was not among our top 12 players last year, in place of Hoffman, who was never sat for a game, based solely on a number... 2.9 mil and under, he plays; 3 mil and over, he's shipped out. That is, we'd rather play one guy who is super underachieving and not worth his contract and therefore very overpaid, because we don't want to pay another guy, who did a lot more for the team last year, because we feel like he might be overpaid relative to the other young guys.

    I think the claim is based on nothing whatsoever, and I have zero clue why anyone would stick to it as you have... but we'll see I guess. To me, this is a no brainer: unless a trade for an upgrade is in the works, Hoffman plays for us next year. The only question is if a 3~ year deal is reached prior to the arbitrator reports back.
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by wprager on Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:05 am

    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:Buying our Greening will save $1,758,334 in 2015/16.  Puempel and Prince, together, are $1,563,333.  Lazar saves another $894,166 if you don't want to carry the minimum 12 forwards.  Don't forget that someone else might surprised at camp and push for a spot.  

    It's a safe assumption that Hoffman will get more than Greening's $2.65M so Greening will be the 7th highest paid forward.  His buyout will save the team the combined salaries of any two of the following players: Pageu, Puemple, Prince, Lazar, or (nearly) cover the salary of any one of Neil, Smith or Chiasson.  Greening, quite literally, has to be better than all of the bottom-six contenders in order to justify not being bought out by the club.  If the Sens (Murray, really) are at all fiscally responsible then they will have to buy out Greening.
    Ideally you would eat 1M for the next two years to trade him, but who knows if that would be enough to entice someone.

    Yes. I didn't think of that. This salary retention thing is still relatively new. Maybe to GM's as well. A team lacking size might well take a chance with Greening at $1.65M. This guy has size and speed and scored 17 goals in his rookie season. Even not playing with Spezza in his prime he should be able to score 10+ goals while providing some physical play.


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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:11 am

    wprager wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:Buying our Greening will save $1,758,334 in 2015/16.  Puempel and Prince, together, are $1,563,333.  Lazar saves another $894,166 if you don't want to carry the minimum 12 forwards.  Don't forget that someone else might surprised at camp and push for a spot.  

    It's a safe assumption that Hoffman will get more than Greening's $2.65M so Greening will be the 7th highest paid forward.  His buyout will save the team the combined salaries of any two of the following players: Pageu, Puemple, Prince, Lazar, or (nearly) cover the salary of any one of Neil, Smith or Chiasson.  Greening, quite literally, has to be better than all of the bottom-six contenders in order to justify not being bought out by the club.  If the Sens (Murray, really) are at all fiscally responsible then they will have to buy out Greening.
    Ideally you would eat 1M for the next two years to trade him, but who knows if that would be enough to entice someone.

    Yes.  I didn't think of that.  This salary retention thing is still relatively new. Maybe to GM's as well.  A team lacking size might well take a chance with Greening at $1.65M.  This guy has size and speed and scored 17 goals in his rookie season.  Even not playing with Spezza in his prime he should be able to score 10+ goals while providing some physical play.  

    Maybe Jimmy Nill reunites Greening with Statspadzza and recreates some magic.
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by Oglethorpe on Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:12 pm

    rooneypoo wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:My opinion is that if the number is something the Sens can live with, then they will buy out Greening and promote Puempel.  If it goes to arb and is north of 3 then the will move Hoffman, keep Greening and promote Pumpel.  Either way I believe they have a higher opinion of Pumpel than Hoffman.

    My opinion is that Hoffman is 100% a part of this team next year regardless of how this plays out, with the only other option being trading him out for an upgrade. I believe the idea that we'd give up good talent over a few 100k's is laughable considering what the last 12 months have shown us. But that's me.

    in this case I think it would be about getting rid of a bad apple in the room more than anything

    Maybe. Kinda feel like that would have happened before now if that were the case. In any event, the idea that we're going to ship a guy off solely over a few 100 Ks is pretty hilarious. But here we go again, Budget!!! explains all.

    You do know that nobody mentioned anything about the budget except for you?

    Have you read the posts quoted here? Can you provide another explanation that isn't about money for the assertion that the org would be happy to keep Hoffman "at a number they can live with" but then would ship him off and play *cough* Greening if the salary figure "went north of 3 million"? What, that would be triggered by moral outrage instead? Or management has an irrational phobia for the number 3?
    It's about where they value him in relation to other inexperienced players.  

    I just don't see it. What you're saying is that we'd rather skate Greening, who was not among our top 12 players last year, in place of Hoffman, who was never sat for a game, based solely on a number... 2.9 mil and under, he plays; 3 mil and over, he's shipped out. That is, we'd rather play one guy who is super underachieving and not worth his contract and therefore very overpaid, because we don't want to pay another guy, who did a lot more for the team last year, because we feel like he might be overpaid relative to the other young guys.

    I think the claim is based on nothing whatsoever, and I have zero clue why anyone would stick to it as you have... but we'll see I guess. To me, this is a no brainer: unless a trade for an upgrade is in the works, Hoffman plays for us next year. The only question is if a 3~ year deal is reached prior to the arbitrator reports back.
    Greening is irrelevant. With Hoffman around Greening blocks Pumpel and puts the team over their internal budget. Without Hoffman, Greening becomes the 13th forward and the payroll is within their target.

    The issue with Hoffman making more than 3 is that it throws the structure out of whack. The Sens have always believed in slotting salaries depending on their valuation of a players worth to THEIR org. Hoffman would fall into the Zbad and Stone range of 2M and 2.25M respectively.
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by wprager on Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:32 pm

    I think if paying $3M for a guy who scored 27 and is still learning puts your salary structure out of whack you need a different structure. If Hoffman does not score 27 or around that number again, well you've only committed to one year. Greening got 3 x $2.65M and that was a mistake. If Greening only got 1 x $3M nobody would even be talking about him now. And Greening never came close to 27.


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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:03 pm

    Will be interesting to see how this turns out. The The Hoffer can get back to scoring goals.
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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by Cap'n Clutch on Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:00 pm

    Or one might say the Hoff can get back to being the man.


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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by Oglethorpe on Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:23 pm

    wprager wrote:I think if paying $3M for a guy who scored 27 and is still learning puts your salary structure out of whack you need a different structure.  If Hoffman does not score 27 or around that number again, well you've only committed to one year.   Greening got 3 x $2.65M and that was a mistake.  If Greening only got 1 x $3M nobody would even be talking about him now.  And Greening never came close to 27.
    Okay, seems simple. Let's say he gets 3.25 this year and scores 18g and 35 points. What do you do ?

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    Re: GUESS GAME: Hoffman's Term + Cap Hit

    Post by spader on Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:54 pm

    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:I think if paying $3M for a guy who scored 27 and is still learning puts your salary structure out of whack you need a different structure.  If Hoffman does not score 27 or around that number again, well you've only committed to one year.   Greening got 3 x $2.65M and that was a mistake.  If Greening only got 1 x $3M nobody would even be talking about him now.  And Greening never came close to 27.
    Okay, seems simple.  Let's say he gets 3.25 this year and scores 18g and 35 points.  What do you do ?  


    I feel like $3.25M is a reasonable price for a 20ish goal guy. Be leaky just got $3.8M x 5 years after one season of that production.

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