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PTFlea


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I don't see the reluctance in putting Pageau there and putting Ryan on their left and ZBad on the right. Try it! Why not?

wprager


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I can't believe we have to wait 4 days and the reward for the long wait is a game against the "Who?" Jersey Devils.

spader


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Ev wrote:
SpezDispensed wrote:I don't see why they ever thought Zbad would be a go to guy.  He'll be good, but I never once saw anything resembling a top line C.  Turris - yes, you can see him progressing and becoming more and more comfortable against teams top checkers etc., but ZBad will be a good 2C when he puts it all together.

Same situation as last year unfortunately.  We need to wait and see how he does once he 'starts the year' which is usually around game 25.

Ryan too, a slow starter that has tons of pressure on to perform now.  He needs to be the catalyst.

Zibanejad has already proven he's a Top 6. It's now about progressing. I do see the upside in him to be like what Turris is today or close, but he is still developing. I think he's just a slow starter, but I also think they should try him on the wing again playing an Ovechkin-like game shooting the puck from all areas. Maybe just for a bit to get him used to being more selfish.

Agreed. Give him time.

PTFlea

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True, patience is important with a player like him.

wprager

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Zibanejad was a top six overall pick and Murray said, last pre-season, that he saw him as the #1 center. So the expectations are a little higher than "proven he's a Top 6". If he's another Mike Fisher, production wise, recall all those discussions we had about Mike Fisher not really being a 2LC; recall also that Fisher played hard and used his body to create space for his linemates -- Zibanejad still does very little of that.

Anyhow, with Fisher 22-15 goals was seen as enough, given his other attributes; Zibanejad probably needs to do a little more than that.


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Ev

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wprager wrote:Zibanejad was a top six overall pick and Murray said, last pre-season, that he saw him as the #1 center.  So the expectations are a little higher than "proven he's a Top 6".  If he's another Mike Fisher, production wise, recall all those discussions we had about Mike Fisher not really being a 2LC; recall also that Fisher played hard and used his body to create space for his linemates -- Zibanejad still does very little of that.  

Anyhow, with Fisher 22-15 goals was seen as enough, given his other attributes; Zibanejad probably needs to do a little more than that.

Two things wrong here. It's pretty foolish for anyone to say Fisher wasn't a 2nd line C. He's been that for the last 10 years or whatever it is. Also not true about Zibanejad not playing the body. You can talk about his production but he is a physical player no doubt. You will be more of a physical player when you are a winger though.

wprager

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I'm not saying Fisher wasn't, I'm saying we had many discussions. Those discussions typically were about how he was a pretty good top-six winger, but as a center in a top-six role he left some things to be desired. For instance, he was very much a north/south player, where as a center you were expected to have more creativity. I think Mendes wrote an article at one point comparing Mike Fisher to other 2LCs in the league and how his stats actually compared rather favorably with other 2LCs (not named Malkin).

As for Zibanejad not playing the body, I stand by what I said -- as compared to Mike Fisher. When Fisher wasn't going offensively he still contributed with his physical play, something that Zibanejad does not do on a regular basis.

Last year Zibanejad was 6th on the team in hits, behind 3rd liners Pageau and Lazar. Both played fewer minutes and fewer games (Pageau played 30 gewer games!) So far this year, he's on pace for even fewer hits than last year (Chiasson is ahead of him for crying out loud). Mike Fisher, who is considerably older, has 21 hits through 6 games, while Zibanejad has 8 in the same number of games.


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Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

Ev

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wprager wrote:I'm not saying Fisher wasn't, I'm saying we had many discussions.  Those discussions typically were about how he was a pretty good top-six winger, but as a center in a top-six role he left some things to be desired.  For instance, he was very much a north/south player, where as a center you were expected to have more creativity.  I think Mendes wrote an article at one point comparing Mike Fisher to other 2LCs in the league and how his stats actually compared rather favorably with other 2LCs (not named Malkin).  

As for Zibanejad not playing the body, I stand by what I said -- as compared to Mike Fisher.  When Fisher wasn't going offensively he still contributed with his physical play, something that Zibanejad does not do on a regular basis.

Last year Zibanejad was 6th on the team in hits, behind 3rd liners Pageau and Lazar.  Both played fewer minutes and fewer games (Pageau played 30 gewer games!)  So far this year, he's on pace for even fewer hits than last year (Chiasson is ahead of him for crying out loud).  Mike Fisher, who is considerably older, has 21 hits through 6 games, while Zibanejad has 8 in the same number of games.  

Of course he's on pace for fewer when he is a notoriously slow starter. He was the same last year. Not to mention Mike Fisher has 2 points all year.

Hits is a very dumb stat but Fisher has 2 hits per game over the last two years compared to 1.8 for Zibanejad. Fisher is more physical, but saying Zibanejad isn't is incorrect. He's especially physical when he's on his game. Not to mention Mike Fisher has 2 points all year. So you can have your hits all you want, Mike...

3rd liners like Chiasson, Lazar, and Pageau should be hitting a lot as they don't have the puck a lot and that's their role. Pageau and Lazar especially are physical players and they are not expected to score a lot. Pageau has more jam but doesn't have the same level of upside of course.

LeCaptain

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There's something that I never understood about Zibanejad. The guy seems afraid of keeping the puck with him, even though I think he's able to. Maybe he should play with guys who are not under pressure to score night in night out, i.e. not Ryan, so he can try to create more.

tim1_2

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ZBad generally looks like he doesn't have full confidence in himself, but then there's times when he does great things with the puck.  It seems like the Sens brass will continue to have patience with him, but sooner or later he's going to have to elevate, or be demoted to the third line.

Ev

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tim1_2 wrote:ZBad generally looks like he doesn't have full confidence in himself, but then there's times when he does great things with the puck.  It seems like the Sens brass will continue to have patience with him, but sooner or later he's going to have to elevate, or be demoted to the third line.

it's just his personality. He's just a generally shy person who isn't the most confident. Benn used to be the same apparently, but changed. I don't think Zbad will but it will limit his upside which is fine because we already have a #1 C. But it's weird because in Sweden Zibanejad made huge strides to get to the SEL and he was playing a hard game hitting everybody and playing with a high compete. Honestly we need to put him at wing again but he is very good at faceoffs.

tim1_2

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Yeah, moving ZBad to the wing isn't a bad idea, and then I guess Pageau gets the #2 C spot, which might work too.

PTFlea

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LeCaptain wrote:There's something that I never understood about Zibanejad. The guy seems afraid of keeping the puck with him, even though I think he's able to. Maybe he should play with guys who are not under pressure to score night in night out, i.e. not Ryan, so he can try to create more.

Pageau with Ryan is a great idea, I 100% believe that. Not only is Pageau unbelievably underrated as a playmaker, he's not in the least afraid to go to dirty areas and uncover loose pucks, which will also change Ryan's game because rebounds will be right around the net.

Pageau also loves getting into board battles and winning them.

The flip side to the coin is - Lazar isn't producing offensively, so putting ZBad with him could kill whatever confidence he has...and also, we've seen when Ryan and ZBad are 'on', they're near unstoppable. Although, that was when Hoffman was with them (hint hint?).

PTFlea

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tim1_2 wrote:Yeah, moving ZBad to the wing isn't a bad idea, and then I guess Pageau gets the #2 C spot, which might work too.

Or that, yeah.

Ryan - Turris - Stone
Hoffman - Pageau - Zibanejad (or just keep ZBad there and move Pageau to the wing).

I stand by my belief that Pageau is a top 6 player who can contribute with the big boys if given a 15 game chance.

Oglethorpe

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Great idea, break up the one line that is producing Facepalm

Why not just move around the other 3 lines Michalek - Pageau - Ryan / Prince - ZBad - Lazar / Chiasson - Smith - Neil

Ev

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How is Pageau a Top 6 player (yet)?

Ev

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Oglethorpe wrote:Great idea, break up the one line that is producing Facepalm

Why not just move around the other 3 lines Michalek - Pageau - Ryan / Prince - ZBad - Lazar / Chiasson - Smith - Neil

as I said the other day, the line is broken up quite a bit and always produces, because of Turris, and now because of Stone. Removing Hoffman doesn't hurt the line.

PTFlea

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Oglethorpe wrote:Great idea, break up the one line that is producing Facepalm

Why not just move around the other 3 lines Michalek - Pageau - Ryan / Prince - ZBad - Lazar / Chiasson - Smith - Neil

Because Hoffman can produce with Ryan and Zbad, as we've seen and this league is about duos more than three players. Turris and Stone are the rocks of that line, Hoffman can be shifted around and not lose confidence IMO.

Plus, we'll never win a thing if only one line is producing.

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