GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

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    tim1_2
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by tim1_2 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:36 am

    Chiasson is playing better this year than he was last year, but that's not saying much. I had high hopes for that kid, especially after his first few games last year, when he had a few points right off the bat. But yeah, at this point, he's an easily replaceable player that always leaves you wanting more. No question in my mind, I'd take Condra over him right now.

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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by Urkie on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:38 am

    SpezDispensed wrote:I also can call a spade a spade and say Ive been.pretty disappointed in Pageau lately as I think he has a lot more to bring
     

    He has been very disappointing. He's not doing anything very well right now whether that be on the PK or 5 on 5. He's just struggling and now his confidence is very low. He definitely can be better. In his role, he has to bring it every game and he just hasn't done that this season.

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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by wprager on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:49 am

    Urkie wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:Chiasson on the third line is a downgrade from condra.  It's baffling to me that they let condra walk over term.  

    Chiasson has little offense and as mentioned his hockey iq isn't good enough to be a checker

    I also hate the term checker.  There should be no one dimensional players unless it's your 5/6 dmen.  Chiasson is a placeholder for someone better like Paul, Lindberg, White, McCormick, dzingel, Robinson etc.  I would imagine it'll be his last year on the team unless they replace Neil with him next year.

    My top 9 woukf not include him.

    I hope it is his last year because there just hasn't been any improvement in his game at all and I don't see potential in him to get better either. It's a shame because he has all the physical attributes to be a really good player. He just doesn't think the game at a high level and that's not something you can teach.


    What physical attributes? He's big, that's it. He is not a very sturdy skater, falls down a lot when trying to go wide on a defender. He certainly does not use his size much to separate the man from the puck, but much of that could be due to his skating agility (or lack thereof).

    However I also disagree that there has been no improvement. He's certainly improved over last year and even over the last half doze games or so. There is no indications that Buddy Robinson would do any better, and as for the other players mentioned they really are not in the same ballpark size-wise.

    I'd like to see what Nick Paul could do. He's over 202 at 6'2" so pretty solidly built. He grew a foot in a short space of time and that takes a little while in adjusting. He's had a couple years since that growth spurt, now, I believe, so it's probably not very long before he's fully caught up to his height.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by tim1_2 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:50 am

    I think we can put a whole bunch of players in the "disappointing" category right now:

    Pageau
    Chiasson
    Lazar
    Smith
    Ceci
    Wiercioch
    Cowen
    Karlsson's Defence (Mendes speculates that he's injured)

    When the list is that long, it doesn't bode well for team success, especially when half your D are on there.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by wprager on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:50 am

    Urkie wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:I also can call a spade a spade and say Ive been.pretty disappointed in Pageau lately as I think he has a lot more to bring
     

    He has been very disappointing. He's not doing anything very well right now whether that be on the PK or 5 on 5. He's just struggling and now his confidence is very low. He definitely can be better. In his role, he has to bring it every game and he just hasn't done that this season.

    It's because we haven't played the Habs in a while.


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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by PTFlea on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:56 am

    tim1_2 wrote:I think we can put a whole bunch of players in the "disappointing" category right now:

    Pageau
    Chiasson
    Lazar
    Smith
    Ceci
    Wiercioch
    Cowen
    Karlsson's Defence (Mendes speculates that he's injured)

    When the list is that long, it doesn't bode well for team success, especially when half your D are on there.

    The D is struggling, but it's no coincidence that your list includes the entire 3rd line of the team. All that needs to be done is to look at point contributions of the third line on the top 8 teams in the league, then compare with us. It won't be pretty.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by Urkie on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:00 am

    wprager wrote:
    Urkie wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:Chiasson on the third line is a downgrade from condra.  It's baffling to me that they let condra walk over term.  

    Chiasson has little offense and as mentioned his hockey iq isn't good enough to be a checker

    I also hate the term checker.  There should be no one dimensional players unless it's your 5/6 dmen.  Chiasson is a placeholder for someone better like Paul, Lindberg, White, McCormick, dzingel, Robinson etc.  I would imagine it'll be his last year on the team unless they replace Neil with him next year.

    My top 9 woukf not include him.

    I hope it is his last year because there just hasn't been any improvement in his game at all and I don't see potential in him to get better either. It's a shame because he has all the physical attributes to be a really good player. He just doesn't think the game at a high level and that's not something you can teach.


    What physical attributes?  He's big, that's it.  He is not a very sturdy skater, falls down a lot when trying to go wide on a defender.  He certainly does not use his size much to separate the man from the puck, but much of that could be due to his skating agility (or lack thereof).  

    However I also disagree that there has been no improvement.  He's certainly improved over last year and even over the last half doze games or so.  There is no indications that Buddy Robinson would do any better, and as for the other players mentioned they really are not in the same ballpark size-wise.

    I'd like to see what Nick Paul could do.  He's over 202 at 6'2" so pretty solidly built.  He grew a foot in a short space of time and that takes a little while in adjusting.  He's had a couple years since that growth spurt, now, I believe, so it's probably not very long before he's fully caught up to his height.

    Last season early on he showed a lot of promise. He was using his size, going to the net and scoring dirty goals. Then he stopped doing that. Now he tries to primarily stick check, not use his size and not move his feet. He can be one of those crash and bang guys but he chooses not to be. He also has decent skills with the puck but he can't read plays and that's the reason he always looks to be struggling with his skating.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by Urkie on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:04 am

    SpezDispensed wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:I think we can put a whole bunch of players in the "disappointing" category right now:

    Pageau
    Chiasson
    Lazar
    Smith
    Ceci
    Wiercioch
    Cowen
    Karlsson's Defence (Mendes speculates that he's injured)

    When the list is that long, it doesn't bode well for team success, especially when half your D are on there.

    The D is struggling, but it's no coincidence that your list includes the entire 3rd line of the team.  All that needs to be done is to look at point contributions of the third line on the top 8 teams in the league, then compare with us.  It won't be pretty.

    Exactly, I think the first line has been about what we expected. The second line has been maybe slightly below average. Ryan has been really good but then there's a huge drop off. Last year we had 3 lines that could score and sustain a forecheck. This year we have maybe one on any given night. That's the biggest difference to me. The forwards laziness, I guess you could say, are putting our defense in vulnerable positions time after time and that defense is average at best to begin with.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by wprager on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:19 am

    SpezDispensed wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:I think we can put a whole bunch of players in the "disappointing" category right now:

    Pageau
    Chiasson
    Lazar
    Smith
    Ceci
    Wiercioch
    Cowen
    Karlsson's Defence (Mendes speculates that he's injured)

    When the list is that long, it doesn't bode well for team success, especially when half your D are on there.

    The D is struggling, but it's no coincidence that your list includes the entire 3rd line of the team.  All that needs to be done is to look at point contributions of the third line on the top 8 teams in the league, then compare with us.  It won't be pretty.

    You sure about that?

    Just for fun, I took the top 8 teams (based on winning percentage this turned out to be, in order from top to 8th: Rangers, Stars, Habs, Preds, Caps, Wild, Kings, Blues -- Ottawa was 13th, btw). Then I ranked their forwards by TOI/G and looked at the players in 7-9th, accounting for anomalies (e.g. Graovac was 8th or 9th in TOI/G but only played one game so I just took the next guy).

    Granted, those are not necessarily always the third liners but without proper research it's the best I can do on short notice. And it's actually pretty accurate in most cases.

    There are anomalies, for sure, such as the Habs' third liner Weise with 8 goals (and Eller with 6), and guys like Gaborik and Vanek racking up points playing third line minutes, but here's the production (just looking at goals for now) from the top 8:

    NYR: 5
    DAL: 6
    MTL: 15
    NSH: 5
    WSH: 10
    MIN: 13
    LAK: 7
    STL: 8

    AVG: 8.625 (take out Vanek, Weise and Eller and that average takes a steep tumble).

    OTT: 8 (Pageau with 4, Lazar and Chiasson with 2 each)



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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by wprager on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:24 am

    Yep, that second line has Ryan with 7 goals, and Michalek with 3 (and he's spent some time lower in the rotation) and Zibanejad with a glaring 2 freaking goals. Want to be disappointed? Look no further than Zibanejad.

    Ryan has come around and has been very productive recently. Don't forget he's also score 5 times in six shootout attempts. Michalek has not been great but he's also been moved around. Others have filled in on that line and have not generated much offense. And since Zibanejad is the center on that line, all eyes are on him. He needs to be better, or maybe it's time to give Pageau a few games with Ryan.


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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by Urkie on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:33 am

    wprager wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:I think we can put a whole bunch of players in the "disappointing" category right now:

    Pageau
    Chiasson
    Lazar
    Smith
    Ceci
    Wiercioch
    Cowen
    Karlsson's Defence (Mendes speculates that he's injured)

    When the list is that long, it doesn't bode well for team success, especially when half your D are on there.

    The D is struggling, but it's no coincidence that your list includes the entire 3rd line of the team.  All that needs to be done is to look at point contributions of the third line on the top 8 teams in the league, then compare with us.  It won't be pretty.

    You sure about that?

    Just for fun, I took the top 8 teams (based on winning percentage this turned out to be, in order from top to 8th: Rangers, Stars, Habs, Preds, Caps, Wild, Kings, Blues -- Ottawa was 13th, btw).  Then I ranked their forwards by TOI/G and looked at the players in 7-9th, accounting for anomalies (e.g. Graovac was 8th or 9th  in TOI/G but only played one game so I just took the next guy).

    Granted, those are not necessarily always the third liners but without proper research it's the best I can do on short notice.  And it's actually pretty accurate in most cases.

    There are anomalies, for sure, such as the Habs' third liner Weise with 8 goals (and Eller with 6), and guys like Gaborik and Vanek  racking up points playing third line minutes, but here's the production (just looking at goals for now) from the top 8:

    NYR: 5
    DAL: 6
    MTL: 15
    NSH: 5
    WSH: 10
    MIN: 13
    LAK: 7
    STL: 8

    AVG: 8.625 (take out Vanek, Weise and Eller and that average takes a steep tumble).

    OTT: 8 (Pageau with 4, Lazar and Chiasson with 2 each)


    Interesting stats. Maybe it's closer then you would think but then you have to factor in that Pageau has 2 SH goals and Lazar has a PP goal. I believe that Chiasson's goals were both PP goals. Michalek has a few PP goals also. That's very little production 5 on 5 for the third line and I think that's the issue.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by Urkie on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:38 am

    wprager wrote:Yep, that second line has Ryan with 7 goals, and Michalek with 3 (and he's spent some time lower in the rotation) and Zibanejad with a glaring 2 freaking goals.  Want to be disappointed?  Look no further than Zibanejad.

    Ryan has come around and has been very productive recently. Don't forget he's also score 5 times in six shootout attempts.  Michalek has not been great but he's also been moved around.  Others have filled in on that line and have not generated much offense.  And since Zibanejad is the center on that line, all eyes are on him.  He needs to be better, or maybe it's time to give Pageau a few games with Ryan.

    To me it seems like Zibanejad is trying to become a more complete player. He's been noticeably better defensively this season. I actually think he's on the right track but he needs to get his confidence up. I think once he gets a couple more goals you'll see him breakout.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by wprager on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:53 am

    Urkie wrote:
    wprager wrote:Yep, that second line has Ryan with 7 goals, and Michalek with 3 (and he's spent some time lower in the rotation) and Zibanejad with a glaring 2 freaking goals.  Want to be disappointed?  Look no further than Zibanejad.

    Ryan has come around and has been very productive recently. Don't forget he's also score 5 times in six shootout attempts.  Michalek has not been great but he's also been moved around.  Others have filled in on that line and have not generated much offense.  And since Zibanejad is the center on that line, all eyes are on him.  He needs to be better, or maybe it's time to give Pageau a few games with Ryan.

    To me it seems like Zibanejad is trying to become a more complete player. He's been noticeably better defensively this season. I actually think he's on the right track but he needs to get his confidence up. I think once he gets a couple more goals you'll see him breakout.

    Honestly? His contract was a message -- show us something or you'll be getting a new cellphone number in a new area code next year. He still has some trade value and he'll be moved unless he shows a clear progression to what they need, which is a 2LC if not a 1BLC. Don't forget what Murray said last off-season, how he thought Zibanejad was the 1LC heir apparent.

    Trying to become a more complete player is no-longer enough. Top-six players are expected to be good-enough defensively, which he already is. What he *isn't* is what's worrying -- he had *ONE GAME* (or maybe more like several shifts in one game) where he played like we all expect him to do. Skate with authority, use your body to protect or retrieve the puck, go hard for the full 45 seconds. We need that to be the rule rather than the occasional exception.


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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by Ev on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:02 am

    he has clearly shown he is a 2C. Anyone saying otherwise is arguing for the sake of arguing.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by spader on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:30 am

    Ev wrote:he has clearly shown he is a 2C. Anyone saying otherwise is arguing for the sake of arguing.

    Agreed. I think we'd all agree that his offense seems to still be somewhat untapped, but he's on pace for ~60 points. That's good production from a 2LC on any team.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by PTFlea on Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:04 pm

    wprager wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:I think we can put a whole bunch of players in the "disappointing" category right now:

    Pageau
    Chiasson
    Lazar
    Smith
    Ceci
    Wiercioch
    Cowen
    Karlsson's Defence (Mendes speculates that he's injured)

    When the list is that long, it doesn't bode well for team success, especially when half your D are on there.

    The D is struggling, but it's no coincidence that your list includes the entire 3rd line of the team.  All that needs to be done is to look at point contributions of the third line on the top 8 teams in the league, then compare with us.  It won't be pretty.

    You sure about that?

    Just for fun, I took the top 8 teams (based on winning percentage this turned out to be, in order from top to 8th: Rangers, Stars, Habs, Preds, Caps, Wild, Kings, Blues -- Ottawa was 13th, btw).  Then I ranked their forwards by TOI/G and looked at the players in 7-9th, accounting for anomalies (e.g. Graovac was 8th or 9th  in TOI/G but only played one game so I just took the next guy).

    Granted, those are not necessarily always the third liners but without proper research it's the best I can do on short notice.  And it's actually pretty accurate in most cases.

    There are anomalies, for sure, such as the Habs' third liner Weise with 8 goals (and Eller with 6), and guys like Gaborik and Vanek  racking up points playing third line minutes, but here's the production (just looking at goals for now) from the top 8:

    NYR: 5
    DAL: 6
    MTL: 15
    NSH: 5
    WSH: 10
    MIN: 13
    LAK: 7
    STL: 8

    AVG: 8.625 (take out Vanek, Weise and Eller and that average takes a steep tumble).

    OTT: 8 (Pageau with 4, Lazar and Chiasson with 2 each)


    Interesting, good work.
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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by tim1_2 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:30 pm

    Yeah Prags, the problem with your stats is you need to isolate the 5 on 5 goals as our new friend Urkie pointed out. Regardless, it doesn't change who is struggling and who isn't.

    ZBad has been fine as the #2 C lately.

    It'd be nice to get Clarkie Mac back and have him back to his "old" self...that'd be a big boost.

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    Re: GAME DAY #18: Red Wings @ Sens - 7:30pm - Monday Nov. 16 2015

    Post by PTFlea on Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:32 pm

    tim1_2 wrote:It'd be nice to get Clarkie Mac back and have him back to his "old" self...that'd be a big boost.


    That'll be huge for us. We miss Mac so much on the 2nd line - or even Mac with Turris and Stone, then Hoffman can work with Z and Ryan. Such a huge addition when he comes back.

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