GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

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    Oglethorpe
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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:34 pm

    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:This is all on Murray, you can't have Neil, Chiaisson, Cowen, Smith, Weircioch and Boro all on the roster.  Zero quickness in that group.  

    Chiasson, Smith and Neil are pretty quick.
    What????

    Chiasson is pretty quick IMO. Smith is a good skater as well. I legit don't see the issues there. Neil, whatever he's almost done anyway, but he can still get up and go.

    Smith has been skating very well this seasno.

    Add in Druzinsky and McCormick and you have a team of goons.

    I agree though. You can't depend on 7 people (top six + Karlsson) to provide all of your offence.

    I'd be doing whatever it takes to bring in Drouin. He's not the answer IMO but I think he's part of the solution.

    Ceci+Lazar for Drouin. I'd also bring up the Bishop trade and remind Yzerman he owes us one.  
    McCormick is the perfect bottom six type player. He is not a goon, but more of an agitator who can skate.

    Ceci + Lazar is a big overpay for someone who hasn't proved a thing at the pro level yet. Lazar + pick maybe.

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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by wprager on Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:35 pm

    Ev wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:This is all on Murray, you can't have Neil, Chiaisson, Cowen, Smith, Weircioch and Boro all on the roster.  Zero quickness in that group.  

    Chiasson, Smith and Neil are pretty quick.
    What????

    Chiasson is pretty quick IMO. Smith is a good skater as well. I legit don't see the issues there. Neil, whatever he's almost done anyway, but he can still get up and go.

    Smith has been skating very well this seasno.

    Add in Druzinsky and McCormick and you have a team of goons.

    I agree though. You can't depend on 7 people (top six + Karlsson) to provide all of your offence.

    I'd be doing whatever it takes to bring in Drouin. He's not the answer IMO but I think he's part of the solution.

    Ceci+Lazar for Drouin. I'd also bring up the Bishop trade and remind Yzerman he owes us one.  

    McCormick is more than a goon IMO.

    I don't see why you can't count on 7 people to provide all your offense. How many teams have more than that scoring a decent amount of points?

    Drouin is OK but I don't see where he plays when we're all healthy, and he has a bad reputation.

    Sens have 9 players with double-digit points. Boston has 11. Montreal has 14. If you raise the bar to 15, Ottawa has 7, Boston and Montreal have 9.

    May not sound like much but when injuries hit (as they have) we simply do not have the depth.

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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by wprager on Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:37 pm

    By the way, no matter how you compare Smith and Prince, it's not even close. He's playing better than Lazar (both offensively and defensively).

    And I am not a big Prince fan.
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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:39 pm

    wprager wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:
    Ev wrote:Prince hasn't warranted enough to become a 1st love winger. The fact is it doesn't really matter who plays. With turris and stone if they're on their game and healthy

    See, that's where we disagree, I think it makes a load of difference.  Especially on the third line where Pageau is being held back by glaringly average players on his wings.  At least McCormick has a nice mix of grit and skill.  I wish Puempel or dzingel was on his other side so something might actually happen from time to time there 5 on 5.

    Prince is second on the team in even-strength points per sixty.  That's playing with Neil and Dizzy.  Imagine where his numbers would be playing in Smith's spot.  Smith has *ZERO* even-strength points in FIFTEEN games!  Are you telling me that Smith has somehow warranted being on the top line?
    Cameron trusts Smith not to screw up, not so much with Prince. And stop bringing up Even Strength points for Prince, it's irrevelant.
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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by Ev on Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:55 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:This is all on Murray, you can't have Neil, Chiaisson, Cowen, Smith, Weircioch and Boro all on the roster.  Zero quickness in that group.  

    Chiasson, Smith and Neil are pretty quick.
    What????

    Chiasson is pretty quick IMO. Smith is a good skater as well. I legit don't see the issues there. Neil, whatever he's almost done anyway, but he can still get up and go.

    Smith has been skating very well this seasno.

    Add in Druzinsky and McCormick and you have a team of goons.

    I agree though. You can't depend on 7 people (top six + Karlsson) to provide all of your offence.

    I'd be doing whatever it takes to bring in Drouin. He's not the answer IMO but I think he's part of the solution.

    Ceci+Lazar for Drouin. I'd also bring up the Bishop trade and remind Yzerman he owes us one.  

    McCormick is more than a goon IMO.

    I don't see why you can't count on 7 people to provide all your offense. How many teams have more than that scoring a decent amount of points?

    Drouin is OK but I don't see where he plays when we're all healthy, and he has a bad reputation.

    Sens have 9 players with double-digit points.  Boston has 11. Montreal has 14.  If you raise the bar to 15, Ottawa has 7, Boston and Montreal have 9.  

    May not sound like much but when injuries hit (as they have) we simply do not have the depth.

    you could say any of those teams would fail if they got injuries. Which they have not. Only Boston just lost Kreci.
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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by wprager on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:04 pm

    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:
    Ev wrote:Prince hasn't warranted enough to become a 1st love winger. The fact is it doesn't really matter who plays. With turris and stone if they're on their game and healthy

    See, that's where we disagree, I think it makes a load of difference.  Especially on the third line where Pageau is being held back by glaringly average players on his wings.  At least McCormick has a nice mix of grit and skill.  I wish Puempel or dzingel was on his other side so something might actually happen from time to time there 5 on 5.

    Prince is second on the team in even-strength points per sixty.  That's playing with Neil and Dizzy.  Imagine where his numbers would be playing in Smith's spot.  Smith has *ZERO* even-strength points in FIFTEEN games!  Are you telling me that Smith has somehow warranted being on the top line?
    Cameron trusts Smith not to screw up, not so much with Prince.   And stop bringing up Even Strength points for Prince, it's irrevelant.

    First, it's *not* irrelevant. Our PP is terrible and our PP/PK differential is not good. So, bottom line, if we are not scoring at even strength we are in trouble.

    Second, it's *not* irrelevant, where did you get such an outlandish idea? Scoring on the PP *is* easier. Goals per sixty is higher, SV% is lower, shooting % is higher. Generally coaches reward players with PP time because it helps them pad their stats which leads to fatter paychecks.

    Third, Prince has a better +/- than Smith after far fewer games. And if you've been following this particular stat, our 4th liners (including Smith, earlier) were negative, so for Prince to be a +6 with those guys *is* saying something. The stat itself may be stupid but when you normalize it (either comparing to others on the team or, in this case, others on the line) then it can become quite meaningful.


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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:15 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:
    Ev wrote:Prince hasn't warranted enough to become a 1st love winger. The fact is it doesn't really matter who plays. With turris and stone if they're on their game and healthy

    See, that's where we disagree, I think it makes a load of difference.  Especially on the third line where Pageau is being held back by glaringly average players on his wings.  At least McCormick has a nice mix of grit and skill.  I wish Puempel or dzingel was on his other side so something might actually happen from time to time there 5 on 5.

    Prince is second on the team in even-strength points per sixty.  That's playing with Neil and Dizzy.  Imagine where his numbers would be playing in Smith's spot.  Smith has *ZERO* even-strength points in FIFTEEN games!  Are you telling me that Smith has somehow warranted being on the top line?
    Cameron trusts Smith not to screw up, not so much with Prince.   And stop bringing up Even Strength points for Prince, it's irrevelant.

    First, it's *not* irrelevant.  Our PP is terrible and our PP/PK differential is not good.  So, bottom line, if we are not scoring at even strength we are in trouble.

    Second, it's *not* irrelevant, where did you get such an outlandish idea?  Scoring on the PP *is* easier.  Goals per sixty is higher, SV% is lower, shooting % is higher.  Generally coaches reward players with PP time because it helps them pad their stats which leads to fatter paychecks.

    Third, Prince has a better +/- than Smith after far fewer games.  And if you've been following this particular stat, our 4th liners (including Smith, earlier) were negative, so for Prince to be a +6 with those guys *is* saying something.  The stat itself may be stupid but when you normalize it (either comparing to others on the team or, in this case, others on the line) then it can become quite meaningful.
    Your fancy stats nonsense doesn't account for the fact that Turris and Stone had cooled off and entered slump mode prior to Smith's insertion onto the line.
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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by wprager on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:23 pm

    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:This is all on Murray, you can't have Neil, Chiaisson, Cowen, Smith, Weircioch and Boro all on the roster.  Zero quickness in that group.  

    Chiasson, Smith and Neil are pretty quick.
    What????

    Chiasson is pretty quick IMO. Smith is a good skater as well. I legit don't see the issues there. Neil, whatever he's almost done anyway, but he can still get up and go.

    Smith has been skating very well this seasno.

    Add in Druzinsky and McCormick and you have a team of goons.

    I agree though. You can't depend on 7 people (top six + Karlsson) to provide all of your offence.

    I'd be doing whatever it takes to bring in Drouin. He's not the answer IMO but I think he's part of the solution.

    Ceci+Lazar for Drouin. I'd also bring up the Bishop trade and remind Yzerman he owes us one.  

    McCormick is more than a goon IMO.

    I don't see why you can't count on 7 people to provide all your offense. How many teams have more than that scoring a decent amount of points?

    Drouin is OK but I don't see where he plays when we're all healthy, and he has a bad reputation.

    Sens have 9 players with double-digit points.  Boston has 11. Montreal has 14.  If you raise the bar to 15, Ottawa has 7, Boston and Montreal have 9.  

    May not sound like much but when injuries hit (as they have) we simply do not have the depth.

    you could say any of those teams would fail if they got injuries. Which they have not. Only Boston just lost Kreci.

    Yes, many of our problems are the result of injuries. We've played without MacArthur for most of the year, which resulted in shuffling on both the top two lines. Normally, in this kind of situation, you could slot in Michalek, as he's definitely a top-six player when healthy and when his legs are working (which they were, earlier) but since he's been out (and also when Lazar missed a couple games) we have numerous callups (Dizzy, McCormick, Greening, Dzingel) and internal shuffling (Smith to the top line, Boro up front).

    But I flat out refuse to believe that Cameron has made the right moves in:
    - benching Prince and playing Boro (including the Hoff-hassling incident)
    - promoting Smith to the top line
    - playing Smith/Chiasson on the PP
    - playing Cowen-Boro as his #1 PK unit
    - sitting Wideman while Boro (wrong side) and Cowen struggled as a pairing, as did Wiercioch-Ceci

    Some moves were necessary because of the circumstances; some of those moves were simply wrong; some moves were not made soon enough (sitting Cowen).


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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by wprager on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:26 pm

    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:
    Ev wrote:Prince hasn't warranted enough to become a 1st love winger. The fact is it doesn't really matter who plays. With turris and stone if they're on their game and healthy

    See, that's where we disagree, I think it makes a load of difference.  Especially on the third line where Pageau is being held back by glaringly average players on his wings.  At least McCormick has a nice mix of grit and skill.  I wish Puempel or dzingel was on his other side so something might actually happen from time to time there 5 on 5.

    Prince is second on the team in even-strength points per sixty.  That's playing with Neil and Dizzy.  Imagine where his numbers would be playing in Smith's spot.  Smith has *ZERO* even-strength points in FIFTEEN games!  Are you telling me that Smith has somehow warranted being on the top line?
    Cameron trusts Smith not to screw up, not so much with Prince.   And stop bringing up Even Strength points for Prince, it's irrevelant.

    First, it's *not* irrelevant.  Our PP is terrible and our PP/PK differential is not good.  So, bottom line, if we are not scoring at even strength we are in trouble.

    Second, it's *not* irrelevant, where did you get such an outlandish idea?  Scoring on the PP *is* easier.  Goals per sixty is higher, SV% is lower, shooting % is higher.  Generally coaches reward players with PP time because it helps them pad their stats which leads to fatter paychecks.

    Third, Prince has a better +/- than Smith after far fewer games.  And if you've been following this particular stat, our 4th liners (including Smith, earlier) were negative, so for Prince to be a +6 with those guys *is* saying something.  The stat itself may be stupid but when you normalize it (either comparing to others on the team or, in this case, others on the line) then it can become quite meaningful.
    Your fancy stats nonsense doesn't account for the fact that Turris and Stone had cooled off and entered slump mode prior to Smith's insertion onto the line.  

    Stone cooled off after his suspension. Turris was banged up pretty badly. I'm still astounded he played with that knee. He's been playing with a taped-up wrist and a brace on his knee. Had nothing to do with Smith. Thing is, Smith is not helping those two produce while Prince is producing with Neil and Dizzy.

    I have not quoted any "fancy stats" by the way. There's not a corsi or a fenwick in any of my recent posts. Just goals/assists at even strength normalized to time played.

    Don't forget I also brought up the past experience when Smith tried playing wing (third line, I think) and failed miserably.


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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by wprager on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:27 pm

    Nowhere did I say that Smith was dragging those two down (someone else did, I believe). All I've been saying is that Smith has not done anything to deserve the promotion, has not done anything since receiving that promotion, and has demonstrated, in the past, an inability to produce on the wing.


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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:32 pm

    Prince deserved the benching, he should be in Bingo not Ottawa.

    Smith is on the top line because there is no better option with the current roster, and the organization thinks Puempel is best served playing a larger role in Bingo.

    The PP has more issues than Smith/Chiaisson, but that is a much bigger discussion.

    Who do you play on the PK instead of Boro Cowen, the entire D corps is a mess and you cannot play only 1 pair in all situations.

    I don't think Wideman has missed a game since he has been put in the lineup. Coaches love Boro and want him in the lineup no matter what. The management has invested in Cowen and he has been given an extra long leash which has since been shortened. Can't put that on Cameron, that was Murray's mistake.
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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:34 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:
    Ev wrote:Prince hasn't warranted enough to become a 1st love winger. The fact is it doesn't really matter who plays. With turris and stone if they're on their game and healthy

    See, that's where we disagree, I think it makes a load of difference.  Especially on the third line where Pageau is being held back by glaringly average players on his wings.  At least McCormick has a nice mix of grit and skill.  I wish Puempel or dzingel was on his other side so something might actually happen from time to time there 5 on 5.

    Prince is second on the team in even-strength points per sixty.  That's playing with Neil and Dizzy.  Imagine where his numbers would be playing in Smith's spot.  Smith has *ZERO* even-strength points in FIFTEEN games!  Are you telling me that Smith has somehow warranted being on the top line?
    Cameron trusts Smith not to screw up, not so much with Prince.   And stop bringing up Even Strength points for Prince, it's irrevelant.

    First, it's *not* irrelevant.  Our PP is terrible and our PP/PK differential is not good.  So, bottom line, if we are not scoring at even strength we are in trouble.

    Second, it's *not* irrelevant, where did you get such an outlandish idea?  Scoring on the PP *is* easier.  Goals per sixty is higher, SV% is lower, shooting % is higher.  Generally coaches reward players with PP time because it helps them pad their stats which leads to fatter paychecks.

    Third, Prince has a better +/- than Smith after far fewer games.  And if you've been following this particular stat, our 4th liners (including Smith, earlier) were negative, so for Prince to be a +6 with those guys *is* saying something.  The stat itself may be stupid but when you normalize it (either comparing to others on the team or, in this case, others on the line) then it can become quite meaningful.
    Your fancy stats nonsense doesn't account for the fact that Turris and Stone had cooled off and entered slump mode prior to Smith's insertion onto the line.  

    Stone cooled off after his suspension.  Turris was banged up pretty badly.  I'm still astounded he played with that knee.  He's been playing with a taped-up wrist and a brace on his knee.  Had nothing to do with Smith.  Thing is, Smith is not helping those two produce while Prince is producing with Neil and Dizzy.

    I have not quoted any "fancy stats" by the way.  There's not a corsi or a fenwick in any of my recent posts.  Just goals/assists at even strength normalized to time played.

    Don't forget I also brought up the past experience when Smith tried playing wing (third line, I think) and failed miserably.
    My problem with your whole premise is that Prince is producing. Prince has only scored in one career NHL game. That is not producing. He is deficient defensively and really doesn't accomplish much on the ice.
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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by PTFlea on Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:57 pm

    ^ I don't really want to quote that big post, but how can Prince produce unless he's given a chance? Playing with Neil on the 4th line isn't gonna get you anything. He needs to be looked at long and hard with the top guys - or at the very least, he needs to take Chiasson's spot on the third line and give Pageau something to work with.

    I watch each and every game - and I'll probably end up subjecting myself tonight and I don't really see any issue with Price personally. Once in a while he's caught out of position, but he's working on it - and he's definitely got offensive instincts.

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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by PTFlea on Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:58 pm

    Perhaps Puempel with his 11 goals in 22 games should get a look? I mean...we need to see if the dude can do it, right? He looked fantastic at the end of last year, but lost his spot because of Prince, now we need someone like him and he's buried in the minors? I don't get it, I really don't. And that makes me dislike Chiasson even more, even though there are guys called up since.
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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by wprager on Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:39 pm

    Oglethorpe wrote:Prince deserved the benching, he should be in Bingo not Ottawa.

    Smith is on the top line because there is no better option with the current roster, and the organization thinks Puempel is best served playing a larger role in Bingo.

    The PP has more issues than Smith/Chiaisson, but that is a much bigger discussion.

    Who do you play on the PK instead of Boro Cowen, the entire D corps is a mess and you cannot play only 1 pair in all situations.

    I don't think Wideman has missed a game since he has been put in the lineup.  Coaches love Boro and want him in the lineup no matter what.  The management has invested in Cowen and he has been given an extra long leash which has since been shortened.  Can't put that on Cameron, that was Murray's mistake.

    Prince and Smith have the same number of points. Prince has played far fewer games, less ice time, lesser linemates and no PP time.  You know who has more PP points than Smith? Lazar, Michalek, Wiercioch, Chiasson.  Please explain what Smith brings to the PP.

    To fix the PK you've got to break up Karlsson and Methot. He's already playing lots without him, anyway. You solidify the second pairing and leave Methot free for the first PK unit.  Put him out there with Ceci (Wideman for now).

    I love Boro, too, but not when he's trying to keep up on his wrong side.


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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by wprager on Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:42 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:^ I don't really want to quote that big post, but how can Prince produce unless he's given a chance?  Playing with Neil on the 4th line isn't gonna get you anything.  He needs to be looked at long and hard with the top guys - or at the very least, he needs to take Chiasson's spot on the third line and give Pageau something to work with.

    I watch each and every game - and I'll probably end up subjecting myself tonight and I don't really see any issue with Price personally.  Once in a while he's caught out of position, but he's working on it - and he's definitely got offensive instincts.


    He's also plus six and Neil and scraps were negative earlier in the year. Smith is plus four in more games.


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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:56 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:Perhaps Puempel with his 11 goals in 22 games should get a look?  I mean...we need to see if the dude can do it, right?  He looked fantastic at the end of last year, but lost his spot because of Prince, now we need someone like him and he's buried in the minors?  I don't get it, I really don't.  And that makes me dislike Chiasson even more, even though there are guys called up since.
    Keep him playing big minutes until in the A. No need to bring him up until a couple of bodies are gone.
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    PTFlea
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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

    Post by PTFlea on Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:25 pm

    Oglethorpe wrote:
    SpezDispensed wrote:Perhaps Puempel with his 11 goals in 22 games should get a look?  I mean...we need to see if the dude can do it, right?  He looked fantastic at the end of last year, but lost his spot because of Prince, now we need someone like him and he's buried in the minors?  I don't get it, I really don't.  And that makes me dislike Chiasson even more, even though there are guys called up since.
    Keep him playing big minutes until in the A.   No need to bring him up until a couple of bodies are gone.

    How many top six players need to be injured before he gets another chance though?

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    Re: GAME DAY #39: Senators @ Blackhawks - 7:00 pm - Sunday, Jan 3 2016

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      Current date/time is Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:04 am