How do we fix the Senators

    Share

    Flo The Action
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 12918
    Registration date : 2008-12-18

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Flo The Action on Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:44 pm

    Oglethorpe wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:Our current depth at centre is average at best.  We have 2 number 2s and a few number 3s.  


    I know exactly what you're saying, but looking around the league, most teams don't have a #1 center.  Simple fact is, there aren't 30 #1 centers in the league.  There are, maybe, 10, and Pittsburgh has two of them.
    Which is why I would argue for an EK McDavid swap.  
    We'd have no defence. We'd pretty much have to start over all over again then we'd not even know what the team looks like in 4 years. About as terrible an idea as I've heard so far. losing our best defenseman (not to mention the best defencemen in the game)just so we can have a kid that can be the player in 2 years is giving up on everything. By proposing that you seem to be giving up on everything else that's been done.
    Can't even agree one bit.
    We just need a couple of pieces. Guys to mature. That's it. Nothing that can't be done by next pre-season.
    We need a top pairing left D, a giant leap forward from Zib, a top 6 LW, re-sign Hoff, unload Cowen and Weir.  No problem especially the top 6 LW and top LD when Chabot and White are not in play.  
    I third be fine with methot play with karlsson when he's healthy so really we could use a top 4 Left D. We could use a top 6 LW but that also depends on MacArthur, let's also see the progression of puempel. I think Zib can do alright if he progresses at the current pace on our second line.
    So yes, to me that would be a vast improvement. That leaves all our picks up for trade along with lazar that still has value and some prospects. I think we can make a top 4 and a top 6 appear out of that and free agency?
    Methot is a 2nd pair guy, MacArthur wasn't a true top 6 last year before getting concussed Puempel could be a top 6 in a few years but not right away.  
    see this is where i don't agree. what you are describing is a team that is maybe in the top 5 teams in the NHL. in an ideal world is mac in the top 9 because the depth is that good? sure.
    is methot a 2nd pairing guy? sure. but lets be honest, there isn't many of those teams around that are stacked.
    we are luck enough to have a guy like karlsson that i think we can live without having a 1st pairing guy to go with him. and yes certain players will develop into positions. in time chabot and white will take their place and possibly push guys out. i believe that we aren't that far away from contending for a cup. i never thought we were this year. if anything i thought we were a team that could make it to the second round. get some experience for the young guys. what i didnt bank on was the number of injuries we've been experiencing.
    this team can beat both LA and chicago when they are on the ball. i see that, i see a team that's not that far. and i don't wanna hear any of the any team can beat any team on any given night but not in the playoffs. there's weight to that but if we can beat them then we aren't far from beating more then once. like i said, we are a top 4 and a top 6 away from being that team. the top 6 guy might come from within and the top 4 we will likely have to make a move for.
    we shouldnt be wanting to blow everything up because we aren't the perfect model for a contender. we can get there. in time.

    SeawaySensFan
    Franchise Player
    Franchise Player

    Number of posts : 24754
    Registration date : 2008-12-02

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:50 am

    wprager wrote:Congratulations, everyone, we did it.  We fixed the Senators!

    Was there ever any doubt?


    Oglethorpe
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1853
    Registration date : 2010-08-31

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:53 am

    Flo The Action wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:Our current depth at centre is average at best.  We have 2 number 2s and a few number 3s.  


    I know exactly what you're saying, but looking around the league, most teams don't have a #1 center.  Simple fact is, there aren't 30 #1 centers in the league.  There are, maybe, 10, and Pittsburgh has two of them.
    Which is why I would argue for an EK McDavid swap.  
    We'd have no defence. We'd pretty much have to start over all over again then we'd not even know what the team looks like in 4 years. About as terrible an idea as I've heard so far. losing our best defenseman (not to mention the best defencemen in the game)just so we can have a kid that can be the player in 2 years is giving up on everything. By proposing that you seem to be giving up on everything else that's been done.
    Can't even agree one bit.
    We just need a couple of pieces. Guys to mature. That's it. Nothing that can't be done by next pre-season.
    We need a top pairing left D, a giant leap forward from Zib, a top 6 LW, re-sign Hoff, unload Cowen and Weir.  No problem especially the top 6 LW and top LD when Chabot and White are not in play.  
    I third be fine with methot play with karlsson when he's healthy so really we could use a top 4 Left D. We could use a top 6 LW but that also depends on MacArthur, let's also see the progression of puempel. I think Zib can do alright if he progresses at the current pace on our second line.
    So yes, to me that would be a vast improvement. That leaves all our picks up for trade along with lazar that still has value and some prospects. I think we can make a top 4 and a top 6 appear out of that and free agency?
    Methot is a 2nd pair guy, MacArthur wasn't a true top 6 last year before getting concussed Puempel could be a top 6 in a few years but not right away.  
    see this is where i don't agree. what you are describing is a team that is maybe in the top 5 teams in the NHL. in an ideal world is mac in the top 9 because the depth is that good? sure.
    is methot a 2nd pairing guy? sure. but lets be honest, there isn't many of those teams around that are stacked.
    we are luck enough to have a guy like karlsson that i think we can live without having a 1st pairing guy to go with him. and yes certain players will develop into positions. in time chabot and white will take their place and possibly push guys out. i believe that we aren't that far away from contending for a cup. i never thought we were this year. if anything i thought we were a team that could make it to the second round. get some experience for the young guys. what i didnt bank on was the number of injuries we've been experiencing.
    this team can beat both LA and chicago when they are on the ball. i see that, i see a team that's not that far. and i don't wanna hear any of the any team can beat any team on any given night but not in the playoffs. there's weight to that but if we can beat them then we aren't far from beating more then once. like i said, we are a top 4 and a top 6 away from being that team. the top 6 guy might come from within and the top 4 we will likely have to make a move for.
    we shouldnt be wanting to blow everything up because we aren't the perfect model for a contender. we can get there. in time.
    I thought the goal WAS to be a top 5 team.

    DefenceWinsChampionships
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1884
    Age : 87
    Location : Ottawa
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2011-05-23

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:25 am

    I think there are a few glaring problems with the Sens that need to be addressed.

    1. By my calculations the Sens have roughly $8M in unused cap space. This would bring in a combination of two top-four d-men, two top-six forwards, or a combination thereof.

    2. The Sens have a plethora of money tied up to players who shouldn't be making the money they're making. Cap hits: Phillips ($2.5M), Chiasson ($1.2M), Cowen ($3.1M), Michalek ($4M). That's a total of $10.8M and does not include Mac ($4.65M) who has played < 10 games this season and Neil ($1.9M) who provides very little value to this team. Taking into account this $10.8M and the $8M that we are under the cap, that's $19M in cap space wasted - $25M or so if you include Mac and Neil. Oh, I forgot Greening too. Tack on another $2.65M in wasted money.

    3. The Sens have depth but not enough elite talent. I would argue that Karlsson, Ryan, and Hoffman are the team's real stars. If I had to tier it, they would be tier 1, Stone Turris Zib Methot Anderson tier 2, MacArthur Pageau tier 3, and everyone else tier 4. The team needs insulation and the Sens' need to look outside their system for help.

    4. Murray needs to stop being so loyal and cut ties with his players. He gives out big contracts to his vets for loyalty and short-changes the younger guys. We could have had Hoffman at $3.5M for the next few years but instead short-changed him. He will be making $4.5M next year if we are lucky. Poor money/contract management. Same can be said for Michalek and Phillips. Neither deserved those contracts. $6.5M a year combined gets you another Karlsson, 2 Turrises, 3 Zibs, etc.

    5. The Sens have a lot of prospects but aside from White and Chabot, I wouldn't consider any of them untouchables as they project to be bottom six/bottom four d-men. Lazar and Ceci haven't projected to where they need to be nor has Cowen. Put together a package and get someone under a controllable contract. If this were my team, I would be going after a bona fide #1 center and a bona fide #2 dman. Prospects are prospects - they're gambles. Bring in someone proven and you won't regret it.

    Ottawa has to entertain making some trades. I am not saying you do all of these but you definitely need to consider some of these scenarios.

    To Ottawa: Yakupov
    To Edmonton: Lazar, Wiercioch

    To St.Louis: Ceci, Prince, 3rd rd pick
    To Ottawa: Shattenkirk

    To Columbus: Cowen, Greening, 2nd rd pick
    To Ottawa: Hartnell, 5th rd pick

    To Minnesota: Paul, 2nd rd pick
    To Ottawa: Zucker

    To Arizona: 2nd rd pick
    To Ottawa: Mikkel Boedker
    avatar
    Ev
    Franchise Player
    Franchise Player

    Number of posts : 20773
    Age : 26
    Location : We The North
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-02-09

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Ev on Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:34 am

    you don't trade Lazar alone for Yakupuke.

    also Stone and Turris both > Hoffman
    avatar
    Ev
    Franchise Player
    Franchise Player

    Number of posts : 20773
    Age : 26
    Location : We The North
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-02-09

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Ev on Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:37 am

    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:I think there are a few glaring problems with the Sens that need to be addressed.

    1. By my calculations the Sens have roughly $8M in unused cap space. This would bring in a combination of two top-four d-men, two top-six forwards, or a combination thereof.

    2. The Sens have a plethora of money tied up to players who shouldn't be making the money they're making. Cap hits: Phillips ($2.5M), Chiasson ($1.2M), Cowen ($3.1M), Michalek ($4M). That's a total of $10.8M and does not include Mac ($4.65M) who has played < 10 games this season and Neil ($1.9M) who provides very little value to this team. Taking into account this $10.8M and the $8M that we are under the cap, that's $19M in cap space wasted - $25M or so if you include Mac and Neil. Oh, I forgot Greening too. Tack on another $2.65M in wasted money.

    3. The Sens have depth but not enough elite talent. I would argue that Karlsson, Ryan, and Hoffman are the team's real stars. If I had to tier it, they would be tier 1, Stone Turris Zib Methot Anderson tier 2, MacArthur Pageau tier 3, and everyone else tier 4. The team needs insulation and the Sens' need to look outside their system for help.

    4.  Murray needs to stop being so loyal and cut ties with his players. He gives out big contracts to his vets for loyalty and short-changes the younger guys. We could have had Hoffman at $3.5M for the next few years but instead short-changed him. He will be making $4.5M next year if we are lucky. Poor money/contract management. Same can be said for Michalek and Phillips. Neither deserved those contracts. $6.5M a year combined gets you another Karlsson, 2 Turrises, 3 Zibs, etc.

    This is just not true in the slightest. If that's all it would have taken they would have signed him to that 100%. Hoffman chose to go to arbitration. He "short-changed" himself.

    Michalek deserved his contract. He's one of the only warriors who can play any situation on the team.

    DefenceWinsChampionships
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1884
    Age : 87
    Location : Ottawa
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2011-05-23

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:01 am

    Ev wrote:you don't trade Lazar alone for Yakupuke.

    also Stone and Turris both > Hoffman

    Hoffman is one on the fastest players in the league and will likely score 40 goals this year. Turris and Stone have different skill sets. Hoffman is a goal scorer - Turris and Stone are two-way players. Different category of players.


    DefenceWinsChampionships
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1884
    Age : 87
    Location : Ottawa
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2011-05-23

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:03 am

    Ev wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:I think there are a few glaring problems with the Sens that need to be addressed.

    1. By my calculations the Sens have roughly $8M in unused cap space. This would bring in a combination of two top-four d-men, two top-six forwards, or a combination thereof.

    2. The Sens have a plethora of money tied up to players who shouldn't be making the money they're making. Cap hits: Phillips ($2.5M), Chiasson ($1.2M), Cowen ($3.1M), Michalek ($4M). That's a total of $10.8M and does not include Mac ($4.65M) who has played < 10 games this season and Neil ($1.9M) who provides very little value to this team. Taking into account this $10.8M and the $8M that we are under the cap, that's $19M in cap space wasted - $25M or so if you include Mac and Neil. Oh, I forgot Greening too. Tack on another $2.65M in wasted money.

    3. The Sens have depth but not enough elite talent. I would argue that Karlsson, Ryan, and Hoffman are the team's real stars. If I had to tier it, they would be tier 1, Stone Turris Zib Methot Anderson tier 2, MacArthur Pageau tier 3, and everyone else tier 4. The team needs insulation and the Sens' need to look outside their system for help.

    4.  Murray needs to stop being so loyal and cut ties with his players. He gives out big contracts to his vets for loyalty and short-changes the younger guys. We could have had Hoffman at $3.5M for the next few years but instead short-changed him. He will be making $4.5M next year if we are lucky. Poor money/contract management. Same can be said for Michalek and Phillips. Neither deserved those contracts. $6.5M a year combined gets you another Karlsson, 2 Turrises, 3 Zibs, etc.

    This is just not true in the slightest. If that's all it would have taken they would have signed him to that 100%. Hoffman chose to go to arbitration. He "short-changed" himself.

    Michalek deserved his contract. He's one of the only warriors who can play any situation on the team.

    I'd say Pageau can play any situation. So can Turris, Stone, Zib. Michalek has been regressing for years. I am happy we signed him but I would have rather someone on the way up at $4M a season than someone on the way down.

    He went to arbitration asking for what the Sens should have offered him. He wanted $3.4M which is where he rightfully should have been paid.

    DefenceWinsChampionships
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1884
    Age : 87
    Location : Ottawa
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2011-05-23

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:06 am

    Ev wrote:you don't trade Lazar alone for Yakupuke.

    also Stone and Turris both > Hoffman

    I don't get what everyone's hard-on is about over Lazar. Sure, he ate a hamburger off the ice and always smiles. He's a 3rd liner at best over his career. He's Condra
    avatar
    Ev
    Franchise Player
    Franchise Player

    Number of posts : 20773
    Age : 26
    Location : We The North
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-02-09

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Ev on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:11 am

    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:I think there are a few glaring problems with the Sens that need to be addressed.

    1. By my calculations the Sens have roughly $8M in unused cap space. This would bring in a combination of two top-four d-men, two top-six forwards, or a combination thereof.

    2. The Sens have a plethora of money tied up to players who shouldn't be making the money they're making. Cap hits: Phillips ($2.5M), Chiasson ($1.2M), Cowen ($3.1M), Michalek ($4M). That's a total of $10.8M and does not include Mac ($4.65M) who has played < 10 games this season and Neil ($1.9M) who provides very little value to this team. Taking into account this $10.8M and the $8M that we are under the cap, that's $19M in cap space wasted - $25M or so if you include Mac and Neil. Oh, I forgot Greening too. Tack on another $2.65M in wasted money.

    3. The Sens have depth but not enough elite talent. I would argue that Karlsson, Ryan, and Hoffman are the team's real stars. If I had to tier it, they would be tier 1, Stone Turris Zib Methot Anderson tier 2, MacArthur Pageau tier 3, and everyone else tier 4. The team needs insulation and the Sens' need to look outside their system for help.

    4.  Murray needs to stop being so loyal and cut ties with his players. He gives out big contracts to his vets for loyalty and short-changes the younger guys. We could have had Hoffman at $3.5M for the next few years but instead short-changed him. He will be making $4.5M next year if we are lucky. Poor money/contract management. Same can be said for Michalek and Phillips. Neither deserved those contracts. $6.5M a year combined gets you another Karlsson, 2 Turrises, 3 Zibs, etc.

    This is just not true in the slightest. If that's all it would have taken they would have signed him to that 100%. Hoffman chose to go to arbitration. He "short-changed" himself.

    Michalek deserved his contract. He's one of the only warriors who can play any situation on the team.

    I'd say Pageau can play any situation. So can Turris, Stone, Zib. Michalek has been regressing for years. I am happy we signed him but I would have rather someone on the way up at $4M a season than someone on the way down.

    He went to arbitration asking for what the Sens should have offered him. He wanted $3.4M which is where he rightfully should have been paid.

    That's not how it works - arbitration is for one year only, and Hoffman would not have been asking for one year at 3.4 from the Sens. They always ask for more than they think they're worth in arbitration, and the team sets this price at less than they would actually pay him.

    You said the Sens could have had him for 3.5 million for multiple years, which is not true. Anyways, it was a transparent process and Hoffman screwed himself over.

    Myself, I am hesitant to give him anything more than 5 million as I think he will pack it in once he gets paid.
    avatar
    Ev
    Franchise Player
    Franchise Player

    Number of posts : 20773
    Age : 26
    Location : We The North
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-02-09

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Ev on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:12 am

    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    Ev wrote:you don't trade Lazar alone for Yakupuke.

    also Stone and Turris both > Hoffman

    I don't get what everyone's hard-on is about over Lazar. Sure, he ate a hamburger off the ice and always smiles. He's a 3rd liner at best over his career. He's Condra

    He's going to be a lot better than Condra. He has a much better shot and much better pedigree. He is already as good as Condra at 21 years old.

    Lazar will top out as a second line two-way winger like Dustin Brown or Ryan Callahan. He's already a very important piece for the team at such a young age.

    Yakupov is a one dimensional overhyped player who is obviously more skilled but won't provide anything that we need to win games.
    avatar
    Oglethorpe
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1853
    Age : 49
    Location : Charleston
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-08-31

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:18 am

    I'm not worried about paying Hoffman. He has 2 really good seasons now and if he packs it in after signing a new deal he will still have really good trade value.
    avatar
    Oglethorpe
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1853
    Age : 49
    Location : Charleston
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-08-31

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:19 am

    Cheers
    Ev wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    Ev wrote:you don't trade Lazar alone for Yakupuke.

    also Stone and Turris both > Hoffman

    I don't get what everyone's hard-on is about over Lazar. Sure, he ate a hamburger off the ice and always smiles. He's a 3rd liner at best over his career. He's Condra

    He's going to be a lot better than Condra. He has a much better shot and much better pedigree. He is already as good as Condra at 21 years old.

    Lazar will top out as a second line two-way winger like Dustin Brown or Ryan Callahan. He's already a very important piece for the team at such a young age.

    Yakupov is a one dimensional overhyped player who is obviously more skilled but won't provide anything that we need to win games.  
    Bang on Ev.
    avatar
    Oglethorpe
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1853
    Age : 49
    Location : Charleston
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-08-31

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:23 am

    I don't get the hard on for Shatt, zero chance of him resigning to play behind EK.
    avatar
    Oglethorpe
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1853
    Age : 49
    Location : Charleston
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-08-31

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:28 am

    I wonder if Columbus would look at a Cowen/Prince for Tyutin deal. Tyutin has an NMC but that would be a real nice fit.
    avatar
    Ev
    Franchise Player
    Franchise Player

    Number of posts : 20773
    Age : 26
    Location : We The North
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-02-09

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Ev on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:46 am

    also just to be clear, I am not saying Lazar is untouchable, I just wouldn't trade him for Yakupov. If we're trading him, I want an established player in return
    avatar
    SeawaySensFan
    Franchise Player
    Franchise Player

    Number of posts : 24754
    Age : 45
    Location : Cornwall, ON
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-12-02

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:56 am

    Oglethorpe wrote:I wonder if Columbus would look at a Cowen/Prince for Tyutin deal.  Tyutin has an NMC but that would be a real nice fit.  

    Agreed. I mentioned this before as well. I like Scott "Suck it Phaneuf" Hartnell as well.
    avatar
    Oglethorpe
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Number of posts : 1853
    Age : 49
    Location : Charleston
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2010-08-31

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:06 pm

    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:I wonder if Columbus would look at a Cowen/Prince for Tyutin deal.  Tyutin has an NMC but that would be a real nice fit.  

    Agreed. I mentioned this before as well. I like Scott "Suck it Phaneuf" Hartnell as well.
    Hartnell's contract goes for awhile and will be another anchor in a year or 2. If he only had 2 years left then I would like him a lot more.

    Sponsored content

    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:34 am