How do we fix the Senators

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    dennycrane
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by dennycrane on Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:32 pm

    To fix this team (which you must do if you want to prevent EK from leaving town in a couple of years):

    1. Upgrade the center position. There are some good players but no elite centerman. Look over the last ten years and tell me which Stanley Cup winning team has a worse #1 center than Turris or Zibanejad.
    2. Using the same example, those teams had strong top 4 D's. The Sens D is terrible when EK is not on the ice.

    To do this, you need an owner who will lose millions with a dollar at par.

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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:01 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:
    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:also just to be clear, I am not saying Lazar is untouchable, I just wouldn't trade him for Yakupov. If we're trading him, I want an established player in return

    If you have enough character in the room I could see it.  But I'd prefer if Nail showed a little bit more, first.  The way he plays now I don't want him on my team.

    I'm just concerned that Lazar's stock will begin to drop similar to Ceci's. It's year two - he's on pace for two more points than last year (over 67 games). It's not that I don't think he has value - it's that I think his value will drop when he's halfway through next season in the last year of his ELC and he's putting up 15 points and we don't know what to do with him. I feel the exact same with Ceci now.
    Ceci's value hasn't dropped, I don't know where you get this from.   Ceci is a 22 year old who has passed Wercioch and Cowen on the depth chart and is starting to show a comfort level of a more experienced player.  

    Yeah. Ceci's trade value appears to be quite high and will probably never be higher.
    Come on..... Even you has to be able to admit that he's been making less mistakes lately. I don't know if he can reach his full potential but at 22, I doubt he regresses. It looks to me as good bet that he'll be a valuable top 4 in his career. May not be shatts level and that's why I'd trade Ceci, if another deal brought him in.

    You think Cowen is overpaid? Wait til Ceci asks for "Top 4" bucks. His current salary is a big factor in his trade value, wouldn't you agree?

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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Flo The Action on Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:11 pm

    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:also just to be clear, I am not saying Lazar is untouchable, I just wouldn't trade him for Yakupov. If we're trading him, I want an established player in return

    If you have enough character in the room I could see it.  But I'd prefer if Nail showed a little bit more, first.  The way he plays now I don't want him on my team.

    I'm just concerned that Lazar's stock will begin to drop similar to Ceci's. It's year two - he's on pace for two more points than last year (over 67 games). It's not that I don't think he has value - it's that I think his value will drop when he's halfway through next season in the last year of his ELC and he's putting up 15 points and we don't know what to do with him. I feel the exact same with Ceci now.
    Ceci's value hasn't dropped, I don't know where you get this from.   Ceci is a 22 year old who has passed Wercioch and Cowen on the depth chart and is starting to show a comfort level of a more experienced player.  

    Yeah. Ceci's trade value appears to be quite high and will probably never be higher.
    Come on..... Even you has to be able to admit that he's been making less mistakes lately. I don't know if he can reach his full potential but at 22, I doubt he regresses. It looks to me as good bet that he'll be a valuable top 4 in his career. May not be shatts level and that's why I'd trade Ceci, if another deal brought him in.

    You think Cowen is overpaid? Wait til Ceci asks for "Top 4" bucks. His current salary is a big factor in his trade value, wouldn't you agree?
    Yes quite possibly, but look at the bridge deal. The same as Zib and stone.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Flo The Action on Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:14 pm

    The sens should trade for a l shot D man and try to acquire ladd if he hits FA this summer. There's leadership there. Especially with a few contracts coming off the books(hopefuly more than on paper)
    My bet would be that sens go after Fowler, or should at the very least.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:19 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:The sens should trade for a l shot D man and try to acquire ladd if he hits FA this summer. There's leadership there. Especially with a few contracts coming off the books(hopefuly more than on paper)
    My bet would be that sens go after Fowler, or should at the very least.

    Ladd would be a perfect addition. A winner to help a young team and even show the older guys what it takes to win. But at 6 schmill, it gets a little rich.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Flo The Action on Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:28 pm

    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:The sens should trade for a l shot D man and try to acquire ladd if he hits FA this summer. There's leadership there. Especially with a few contracts coming off the books(hopefuly more than on paper)
    My bet would be that sens go after Fowler, or should at the very least.

    Ladd would be a perfect addition. A winner to help a young team and even show the older guys what it takes to win. But at 6 schmill, it gets a little rich.
    If we clear Cowen, greening, Neil and Phillips that's a lot of smackaroos of he bill. Mind you some of those will have to be replaced but replacing Neil will be done with peanuts.(not literally)
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:53 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:I don't get the hard on for Shatt,  zero chance of him resigning to play behind EK.    
    You mean the way Brent seabrook plays on the second pairing behind, the pairing of Duncan Keith?

    I think players understand depth wins staley cups. As long as he gets paid what he is worth I don't see shatts being a problem to resign. Much like seabrook did.
    This is the first season they haven't been paired together over 50 per cent of the time 5 on 5 plus they both play PP since they are left right combo.  
    No it isn't. They've separated them quite a few times over the years. You are right that they can be paired up on the PP but I would argue that that's not the defining factor as to why seabrook resigned. I think winning and getting paid what you're worth comes ahead of being "the guy". And shatts coming out of st-Louis I'm sure understands that. He probably wants to contribute to a team that can win as opposed to  retrograde to being the number 1 on a team that can barely make it. Which is where UFA's often land in this cap world.
    I looked up TOI for Seabrooke with all players so that is not debatable. Secondly, Seabrooke had already won two cups so comfort in an environment may have been a factor. Finally Shatts will not re-sign for EK money or less AND St.Louis press has stated he doesn't want to play behind Pieterangelo.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:59 pm

    dennycrane wrote:To fix this team (which you must do if you want to prevent EK from leaving town in a couple of years):

    1. Upgrade the center position. There are some good players but no elite centerman. Look over the last ten years and tell me which Stanley Cup winning team has a worse #1 center than Turris or Zibanejad.
    2. Using the same example, those teams had strong top 4 D's. The Sens D is terrible when EK is not on the ice.

    To do this, you need an owner who will lose millions with a dollar at par.
    I would argue the D is not great when EK is on the ice.

    The owner will spend when the time is right.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:00 pm

    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    Oglethorpe wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:also just to be clear, I am not saying Lazar is untouchable, I just wouldn't trade him for Yakupov. If we're trading him, I want an established player in return

    If you have enough character in the room I could see it.  But I'd prefer if Nail showed a little bit more, first.  The way he plays now I don't want him on my team.

    I'm just concerned that Lazar's stock will begin to drop similar to Ceci's. It's year two - he's on pace for two more points than last year (over 67 games). It's not that I don't think he has value - it's that I think his value will drop when he's halfway through next season in the last year of his ELC and he's putting up 15 points and we don't know what to do with him. I feel the exact same with Ceci now.
    Ceci's value hasn't dropped, I don't know where you get this from.   Ceci is a 22 year old who has passed Wercioch and Cowen on the depth chart and is starting to show a comfort level of a more experienced player.  

    Yeah. Ceci's trade value appears to be quite high and will probably never be higher.
    Come on..... Even you has to be able to admit that he's been making less mistakes lately. I don't know if he can reach his full potential but at 22, I doubt he regresses. It looks to me as good bet that he'll be a valuable top 4 in his career. May not be shatts level and that's why I'd trade Ceci, if another deal brought him in.

    You think Cowen is overpaid? Wait til Ceci asks for "Top 4" bucks. His current salary is a big factor in his trade value, wouldn't you agree?
    Bridge deal this summer at about 2.5M per which is much less than either Wier or Cowen.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:05 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:The sens should trade for a l shot D man and try to acquire ladd if he hits FA this summer. There's leadership there. Especially with a few contracts coming off the books(hopefuly more than on paper)
    My bet would be that sens go after Fowler, or should at the very least.
    Fowler isn't really that good, but he is much better than our 4 LD. Problem is it would likely cost a player like Zib along with a top prospect like Chabot.
    Ladd will likely require a 6 x 5.5 at least. That's a lot of cheese for an aging leader. He would hav been perfect back in the day of endless playoff disappointments versus the maple roaches.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:10 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:
    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:The sens should trade for a l shot D man and try to acquire ladd if he hits FA this summer. There's leadership there. Especially with a few contracts coming off the books(hopefuly more than on paper)
    My bet would be that sens go after Fowler, or should at the very least.

    Ladd would be a perfect addition. A winner to help a young team and even show the older guys what it takes to win. But at 6 schmill, it gets a little rich.
    If we clear Cowen, greening, Neil and Phillips that's a lot of smackaroos of he bill. Mind you some of those will have to be replaced but replacing Neil will be done with peanuts.(not literally)
    Neil has already been replaced he just has to finish the year. Hopefully they can move Cowen and Weir and bring in a guy like Tyutin. I would move Z Smith at the deadline this year. Even though he has another year at 1.9M he may never have higher trade value.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Hoff-Machine on Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:42 pm

    Michallica wrote:Liked the michalek signing the day it was done and still like him on the team. Just wish he could stay healthy, he would immediately stabilize the 3rd line and move up when necessary.  

    That game was a joke last night.  Let's not be fooled by the sens scoring 5 goals.  Fleury was not very good and the shots that went in were harmless for the most part.  Only the first two goals can I say were a result of hard work from the sens and both were because of mark stone.  ANd then stone gave the puck up to crosby for the hat trick and GWG Facepalm

    This getting outshot 2-1 business and not having a shot for more than 12 mins in a period is getting tiring and is reminiscent of 2010-11 season when they lost like 10 straight or something.

    The team is clearly waiting for some kind of change to take place....I actually would trade chabot for an edler type of player.  No joke.

    wprager wrote:I would consider giving up a top-end prospect like Chabot only if they were one-player short of being a Cup Contender.  In other words, no.  Nuh-huh.  No way!

    I posted this elsewhere already so this is a paraphrase:

    - Phillips/Greening/Neil/Smith off the roster and payroll
    - Cowen/Wiercioch off the roster
    - add top-four D-man to play left side with Ceci on second pairing and a top-six left winger (should be able to get those two for the money saved on those other contracts)
    - add Claesson or Englund as 7th D
    - White replaces Smith as 4th line C with Puempel/Prince/Lazar/Chiasson and the like on the wings (a line that's actually expected to score and not run around and try to catch the other team)
    - Pageau and Michalek is a good start for the third line; may be add MacArthur
    - Stone/Hoffman/Ryan/NewGuy as the wingers for Turris and Zibanejad

    If that was our lineup, would we even need an upgrade?  And let's say we only got either the top-four D-man or the top-six winger, then at that point do you consider moving a Chabot for that missing piece?  Maybe.

    Michallica wrote:The problem I'm having is that our players (defense) aren't developing the way we wanted.  It's no wonder karlsson excelled, he spent a year in Sweden and really took off in the NHL (don't know how much playing 12 games in the AHL helped).  

    We thought Weircioch had turned a corner and he clearly hasn't.  Cowen is a mess.  Boro is being played out of his element.  Only Ceci has emerged as somewhat dependable and even he's had his share of struggles.  I'm getting sick now of this perpetual wait on prospects that don't pan out.  

    That's why I'd say screw it, trade chabot  for an already developed piece.  It would take a bit more to get Edler but sell high when you can.  They did with Rundblad and got Turris.  
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by wprager on Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:27 pm

    The other part of the picture is, of course, financial. The Sens have some of the lowest ticket/concession prices and a large debt load. So having a player on an ELC as is very attractive. UFAs are expensive and, mostly, not worth it.


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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:38 pm

    They should model the team similar to this next year. I think anyone outside of this window you look at moving.

    Hoffman-Zib-Ryan
    XXXXX-Turris-Stone
    MacArthur-Pageau-XXXX
    Michalek-XXXXX-Lazar

    XXXX-Karlsson
    Methot-XXXXXX
    XXXXX-Ceci

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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by DefenceWinsChampionships on Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:43 pm

    wprager wrote:The other part of the picture is, of course, financial.  The Sens have some of the lowest ticket/concession prices and a large debt load.  So having a player on an ELC as is very attractive. UFAs are expensive and, mostly, not worth it.

    I totally agree but wins leads to higher attendance and higher ticket prices. Wins also lead to playoffs which are salary free and where teams make the majority of the money.

    Fact is Ottawa is only like $6.5M under the cap or something. That's not bad. It's signing players to dreadful contracts that is hurting the team. Cowen, Neil, Phillips, Chiasson, Greening. That's a lot of wasted salary. Then we have Mac and Michalek who have barely played this year due to injuries. If you're a cap team you have to make every penny count.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Hoff-Machine on Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:52 pm

    In terms of finances, bringing a player now shouldn't affect the finances that much for the rest of the way. This off-season, we're saving money with Phillips and neil coming off the books.

    They need to bite the bulllet and just buy out both cowen and greening, it's become pretty apparent they're untradeable at this point. And they should not be taking up any more roster spots.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by Hoff-Machine on Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:55 pm

    and call me crazy, but I have a really good feeling that the sens will sign Louie Eriksson this off-season. He's buddy of karlsson's and I'm sure sens brass wants to make EK happy to be in Ottawa.
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    Re: How do we fix the Senators

    Post by wprager on Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:19 pm

    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:They should model the team similar to this next year. I think anyone outside of this window you look at moving.

    Hoffman-Zib-Ryan
    XXXXX-Turris-Stone
    MacArthur-Pageau-XXXX
    Michalek-White-Lazar

    Methot-Karlsson
    XXXXX-Ceci
    Borowiecki-Wideman

    I made some changes.  I think all we need is a second-pairing left-hand-shooting defenseman to play with Ceci.  I have full confidence in #5 being a solid 2nd pairing defenseman but he needs some veteran help now.  And Borowiecki-Wideman is fine as a third pairing, with Claesson or Wikstrand as the 7th.  

    Up-front, by all accounts White will be NHL ready next season and a 4th line center job would not be asking too much.   Michalek can play right wing, can't he?  At $4M per he should be on the third line and then one of Prince/Puempel to fill out that 4th line.


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