Deadline moves.

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    tim1_2
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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by tim1_2 on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:05 pm

    I should have taken the advice I normally give Ev and just steered clear of the dumpster fire today. It's the sheer arrogance of these fools that really chafes me.

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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by Flo The Action on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:06 pm

    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:For what it's worth ive seen a lot of isles fans upset at the prince trade. Wanted parenteau and upset that snow made this move instead
    personally I love that they didn't trade parenteau. I bet a lot of leafs fans are upset. No precious picks for them to accumulate. Parenteau stays, boyes stays...


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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by tim1_2 on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:09 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:
    tim1_2 wrote:SensChirp is actually pretty level-headed, although they don't really add much of anything new.

    Senschirp is just boring. Doesn't bring anything forward anymore. Just a little recap. I hardly ever go there anymore.

    I never go to the website..just follow him on Twitter. Nothing revolutionary, but at least he actually watches the games and hasn't gone overboard with the advanced stats.
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    tim1_2
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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by tim1_2 on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:10 pm

    The social media debacle just makes me glad I have you guys for rationale discussions. Bring it in. Group hug.

    Cheers
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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by PTFlea on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:12 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:
    DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:For what it's worth ive seen a lot of isles fans upset at the prince trade. Wanted parenteau and upset that snow made this move instead
    personally I love that they didn't trade parenteau. I bet a lot of leafs fans are upset. No precious picks for them to accumulate. Parenteau stays, boyes stays...


    Bad move by the Isles and Leafs not getting something done for PAP. What are you doing? What's Prince gonna do lol?
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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by PTFlea on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:15 pm

    tim1_2 wrote:The social media debacle just makes me glad I have you guys for rationale discussions. Bring it in. Group hug.

    Cheers

    slowclap Clapping Cheers TwoThumbsUp! PartyTime! NOT! UhHuh Fingers Fire GoSensGo! smokeweedeveryday
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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by wprager on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:56 pm

    spader wrote:FWIW, Prince (basically) was a 3rd rounder. Just saying. He was drafted 61st.

    There's obviously more to the Prince story. I'm assuming that those reports we got last year that he had entitlement and attitude issues were true.

    According to this:


    Less than a third of 3rd round picks become NHLers. My apologies for pointing to a graphic from a Yost article, but it's the first thing that came up in the search. Not exactly sure what "become NHLers" means, but it likely means playing a minimum number of games. If Prince is not there yet he's probably pretty close. His playing was certainly good enough to play third-line minutes.

    If you take *three* third round picks, then there is a very good chance that one of them will turn out into a player like Prince in about 4-5 years' time. And it's not like Prince was making a ton of money. Sure, you can probably get a 4th liner for close to league minimum and save as much as $175K but, let's face it, that's peanuts, and, as said earlier, Prince played well enough to get 3rd line minutes (certainly brought more than Chiasson, who makes more).


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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by wprager on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:59 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:
    dennycrane wrote:PW46 - a healthy scratch D on arguably the worst defensive team in the NHL. Isn't the question why would I trade for this guy?

    A lot of deadline players are like trash you put out at a garage sale.
    Well to be fair we had a very questionable D past the first pairing and nothing was working.
    On a team with good D depth that is hard to play against who knows if he couldn't turn it around. He needs a solid D partner.

    In many ways he is the left-hand version of Ceci; he would be fine playing on a pairing with a right-handed Phaneuf or Methot.


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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by wprager on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:01 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:
    wprager wrote:He had good advanced stats (1st on team in CF and FF, 2nd in SF -- to be fair, being 1st/2nd on the Sens still means not very good) and as for scoring, if you adjust to time on ice he was 1st in assists per 60, 3rd in goals per 60.

    It doesn't work like that though, if you increase his ice time, you get much harder matchups and the production goes way down.

    Maybe, maybe not. The way it works is you earn ice time and then you find out. I felt he earned that ice time over, for example, Chiasson. But Chiasson got to play with Pageau and Prince tagged along with Neil. And then he outproduced him when normalized to ice time.


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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by wprager on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:02 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:
    dennycrane wrote:PW46 - a healthy scratch D on arguably the worst defensive team in the NHL. Isn't the question why would I trade for this guy?

    A lot of deadline players are like trash you put out at a garage sale.

    ...but NO value at all?  Not a 5th, not a 6th?  Nothing?  Because we're not qualifying him for 2.7 million or whatever it is this summer, so we just let a UFA walk for all intensive purposes.

    Oh well..

    Couldn't a Pirri for Wiercioch have worked...??...

    Problem is the contract was back loaded so his QO had to be $2.7M. He will be signed as a UFA next season for less than that.


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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by PTFlea on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:03 pm

    How the hell did Vancouver not trade Vrbata or Hamhuis? Are they insane?
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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by wprager on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:11 pm

    Michallica wrote:
    Facepalm The notion that these 'advanced statisticians' know better than hockey personnel is just gotta stop.  Not everything is moneyball you idiots.

    OK, fair enough, but by what reckoning was Chiasson getting 2nd line minutes when Prince was stapled to Neil on the 4th line? I am not a fan of Prince; I thought he'd be moved and Puempel would be here (so I'm getting my "wish") but even I can see that he was not given a chance. Why did Cowen not only get chance after chance after chance, but also a big contract without showing much of anything except his first year? Chiasson? Wiercioch? Lazar! Hoffman was waived! And even though he's led this team in goals the last two seasons he still cannot get PP ice time over Lazar and Smith!!!!

    This organization values "character" and other intangibles (not sure what Cowen/Wiercioch/Chiasson intangibles are) over skill and production. You've got to have both in order to be successful. Leaders lead. Checkers check. Intangibles intange. Scorers score (on and off the ice). You won't win with a team full of scorers or a team full of checkers or a team full of leaders. It's the most rare player that is a leader who can score and has all the intangibles. Most are slotted one way or the other and you need a proper mix.


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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by wprager on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:14 pm

    tim1_2 wrote:Yeah, people are forgetting the Phaneuf deal which is a big reason why we're 5 and 1 in the last 6. Twitter is a tire fire right now of cry babies.

    Listen, other GMs don't highly value Wiercioch or Prince because they're just not that good.

    Murray did absolutely fine leading up to the deadline. There wasn't much to be done, and no sense overpaying for anyone.

    But there was absolutely no reason to discard a prospect who has made it to the NHL for a 3rd rounder that, very likely, will never get more than a handful of games. And by the time he does, Karlsson will be north of 30.

    Murray waited way too long with Cowen and Wiercioch and is selling at an all time low. Same with Greening. Jury is out with Smith (he should move him at the draft; probably won't though). But he didn't wait at all with Prince.


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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:22 pm

    wprager wrote:
    spader wrote:FWIW, Prince (basically) was a 3rd rounder. Just saying. He was drafted 61st.

    There's obviously more to the Prince story. I'm assuming that those reports we got last year that he had entitlement and attitude issues were true.

    According to this:


    Less than a third of 3rd round picks become NHLers.  My apologies for pointing to a graphic from a Yost article, but it's the first thing that came up in the search.  Not exactly sure what "become NHLers" means, but it likely means playing a minimum number of games.  If Prince is not there yet he's probably pretty close.  His playing was certainly good enough to play third-line minutes.

    If you take *three* third round picks, then there is a very good chance that one of them will turn out into a player like Prince in about 4-5 years' time.  And it's not like Prince was making a ton of money.  Sure, you can probably get a 4th liner for close to league minimum and save as much as $175K but, let's face it, that's peanuts, and, as said earlier, Prince played well enough to get 3rd line minutes (certainly brought more than Chiasson, who makes more).
    Who cares about Prince, he's nothing. Take the 3rd rounder and in 4 years if he's a marginal NHLer who doesn't do anything special you move him and try again.
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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by Oglethorpe on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:26 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    dennycrane wrote:PW46 - a healthy scratch D on arguably the worst defensive team in the NHL. Isn't the question why would I trade for this guy?

    A lot of deadline players are like trash you put out at a garage sale.
    Well to be fair we had a very questionable D past the first pairing and nothing was working.
    On a team with good D depth that is hard to play against who knows if he couldn't turn it around. He needs a solid D partner.

    In many ways he is the left-hand version of Ceci; he would be fine playing on a pairing with a right-handed Phaneuf or Methot.
    In no way is he a left handed version of Ceci, if you don't see the difference in their ceilings well....
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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by PTFlea on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:31 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    dennycrane wrote:PW46 - a healthy scratch D on arguably the worst defensive team in the NHL. Isn't the question why would I trade for this guy?

    A lot of deadline players are like trash you put out at a garage sale.
    Well to be fair we had a very questionable D past the first pairing and nothing was working.
    On a team with good D depth that is hard to play against who knows if he couldn't turn it around. He needs a solid D partner.

    In many ways he is the left-hand version of Ceci; he would be fine playing on a pairing with a right-handed Phaneuf or Methot.

    Oh Walt... Laugh1
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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by wprager on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:32 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:How the hell did Vancouver not trade Vrbata or Hamhuis?  Are they insane?

    NMC for Hamhuis. He wanted to go out West or to only a small handful of teams in the East. He can still go out West in the summer.


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    Re: Deadline moves.

    Post by wprager on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:34 pm

    SpezDispensed wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    dennycrane wrote:PW46 - a healthy scratch D on arguably the worst defensive team in the NHL. Isn't the question why would I trade for this guy?

    A lot of deadline players are like trash you put out at a garage sale.
    Well to be fair we had a very questionable D past the first pairing and nothing was working.
    On a team with good D depth that is hard to play against who knows if he couldn't turn it around. He needs a solid D partner.

    In many ways he is the left-hand version of Ceci; he would be fine playing on a pairing with a right-handed Phaneuf or Methot.

    Oh Walt... Laugh1

    I'm perfectly serious. He won't be playing for the Senators because there's no way he gets $2.7M, but when he's not signed someone will come sniffing around and sign him for under $1M and he'll be fine.


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