Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

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    wprager
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by wprager on Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:33 pm

    Flo The Action wrote:
    That's plenty of money to get a player for one or two years that would make us better than we are now. Worst case scenario we end up trading him if someone steps up. Of course that's counting we don't pick up a dud. I'd trust management to pick out good players to sign. We really missed out on Williams last year, and for the money he went for? Shish....

    No, it really isn't. You have to leave $2M for injuries. That doesn't leave much.

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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by PTFlea on Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:37 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    That's plenty of money to get a player for one or two years that would make us better than we are now. Worst case scenario we end up trading him if someone steps up. Of course that's counting we don't pick up a dud. I'd trust management to pick out good players to sign. We really missed out on Williams last year, and for the money he went for? Shish....

    No, it really isn't.  You have to leave $2M for injuries. That doesn't leave much.

    Don't forget someone goes to the minors in that scenario, so that opens another million give or take.

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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by spader on Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:47 pm

    Your very own Mark Stone is a finalist in the TSN Franchise Faceoff as possibly the best option for 2nd line winger in the league. 

    He's up against Kucherov, Kessel, and Wheeler. 

    He's not doing so great in the voting, but you can vote and help him out. 

    http://www.tsn.ca/franchise-faceoff
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by wprager on Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:05 pm

    PTFlea wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    That's plenty of money to get a player for one or two years that would make us better than we are now. Worst case scenario we end up trading him if someone steps up. Of course that's counting we don't pick up a dud. I'd trust management to pick out good players to sign. We really missed out on Williams last year, and for the money he went for? Shish....

    No, it really isn't.  You have to leave $2M for injuries. That doesn't leave much.

    Don't forget someone goes to the minors in that scenario,  so that opens another million give or take.

    Huh? No, if someone is injured you can't send them down. You have to bring someone else up. Given our lack of depth, an injury could result in the need to get some help elsewhere.


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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by PTFlea on Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:29 am

    wprager wrote:
    PTFlea wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    That's plenty of money to get a player for one or two years that would make us better than we are now. Worst case scenario we end up trading him if someone steps up. Of course that's counting we don't pick up a dud. I'd trust management to pick out good players to sign. We really missed out on Williams last year, and for the money he went for? Shish....

    No, it really isn't.  You have to leave $2M for injuries. That doesn't leave much.

    Don't forget someone goes to the minors in that scenario,  so that opens another million give or take.

    Huh? No, if someone is injured you can't send them down.  You have to bring someone else up.  Given our lack of depth, an injury could result in the need to get some help elsewhere.

    Misread.
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by rooneypoo on Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:49 am

    Flo The Action wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    PTFlea wrote:Definitely.  I think everyone's very pleased to move on from that one and now move into what could be a tougher one with Ceci after Dekeyser's Great Day.

    Oh, crap, you're right.  How much is mama's cooking worth to Cody, I wonder?  Sens have $8.8M cap space left.  If Ceci gets anywhere near $5M they will be just $4M under the cap.  Last year only 13 teams in the league were under $5M in cap room.  Toronto were almost exactly at $4M and were 10th highest (cap) in the league.  Could be the Sens will be in the top-third or very close.  What does that do to the "budget" talk?

    Nothing?

    OTT has done nothing but lock up all its key young players, year over year, since people starting talking about this. And you're right, I think Ceci earns at least a $3 mil / year deal, pushing our cap up to $68~ mil.

    The problem is people say' budget' and they don't have a clear idea of what they're actually trying to communicate. I believe the Sens have an internal budget, under the cap but well over the floor. But if your budget is $70~ mil ish, which is what it's looking like at this point, and your cap is $73 mil, then it's a pretty minute point to insist on. Meaningless, really.

    Anyway, we've been smart with our cap and salary commitments long term. Turris and Stone will need new contracts in 2 years, and so will Anderson (or we'll need a new goalie). Karlsson (and Methot, if he's still here) are up the year after that. The people who think the Sens don't spend on UFA day because they're cheap are myopic and just don't see the long term impact of stupid UFA spending. Do you think that, if NYI could go back in time, they would still give out $9 mil /yr to Grabo and Kulemin via UFA if they had realized it would cost them Okposo?

    People can be so stubborn and short sighted on this question.
    I think that's a crock of Dung. Yeah we all know the org operates under their own budget and you can't be counting players new contracts in 2 -3 years. You know what other teams do when they operate closer to the cap ceiling because of FA? They end up trading players and recuperating assets. So sorry if I don't buy into that scenario that we are holding off for future contracts. We could easily invest on a one or two year contract on a guy like Hudler for the third line and not have a problem with the cap.
    And the isles had the space to resign okposo, they too operate under a self imposed budget. They were the masters of their own destiny and their own budget cost them. I wouldn't place the blame on just sayin they made bad decisions.

    Truth is this self imposed budget IS hampering us from putting he best competitive team out there.
    It plays into how we handle making trades(like having to move out our bad contracts in one like the phaneuf trade) so don't start coming in here telling anyone that's got a problem with the budget mentality that they are day dreaming. That's bull

    If anyone thinks we're one Hudler away from a cup, they're dreaming. End of story.
    No but are we more likely to make the playoffs or to win a round with Hudler or without? He'd be easy to get on a 1 or 2 year deal and it wouldn't affect any future contracts.
    So don't distort what I've said and answer that question, are we more likely to to make the playoffs or win a round with a Hudler (or preferably a brower) type of player signed short termed.

    The assumption that runs behind everyone of these scenarios is always that there's some decent player out there who's willing to sign a 1 or 2 year deal with OTT, when in fact he likely has a bunch of other options and there are a bunch of other factors that go into why you sign here and not there (location, organization, chances at a cup, etc.).

    I personally don't want us spending $4 mil on Kulemin to a 3 year deal today and then wondering 18 months from now about how we're going to fit both Turris and Stone in under the cap.

    Would adding a guy like Hudler make us a bit better? Today, probably, but long term I think it may well hurt us. Do I doubt that Hudler will settle for a 1 year deal on a playoff bubble team, when he will almost certainly have other options? Most definitely.
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by rooneypoo on Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:07 am

    Flo The Action wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    rooneypoo wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    PTFlea wrote:Definitely.  I think everyone's very pleased to move on from that one and now move into what could be a tougher one with Ceci after Dekeyser's Great Day.

    Oh, crap, you're right.  How much is mama's cooking worth to Cody, I wonder?  Sens have $8.8M cap space left.  If Ceci gets anywhere near $5M they will be just $4M under the cap.  Last year only 13 teams in the league were under $5M in cap room.  Toronto were almost exactly at $4M and were 10th highest (cap) in the league.  Could be the Sens will be in the top-third or very close.  What does that do to the "budget" talk?

    Nothing?

    OTT has done nothing but lock up all its key young players, year over year, since people starting talking about this. And you're right, I think Ceci earns at least a $3 mil / year deal, pushing our cap up to $68~ mil.

    The problem is people say' budget' and they don't have a clear idea of what they're actually trying to communicate. I believe the Sens have an internal budget, under the cap but well over the floor. But if your budget is $70~ mil ish, which is what it's looking like at this point, and your cap is $73 mil, then it's a pretty minute point to insist on. Meaningless, really.

    Anyway, we've been smart with our cap and salary commitments long term. Turris and Stone will need new contracts in 2 years, and so will Anderson (or we'll need a new goalie). Karlsson (and Methot, if he's still here) are up the year after that. The people who think the Sens don't spend on UFA day because they're cheap are myopic and just don't see the long term impact of stupid UFA spending. Do you think that, if NYI could go back in time, they would still give out $9 mil /yr to Grabo and Kulemin via UFA if they had realized it would cost them Okposo?

    People can be so stubborn and short sighted on this question.
    I think that's a crock of Dung. Yeah we all know the org operates under their own budget and you can't be counting players new contracts in 2 -3 years. You know what other teams do when they operate closer to the cap ceiling because of FA? They end up trading players and recuperating assets. So sorry if I don't buy into that scenario that we are holding off for future contracts. We could easily invest on a one or two year contract on a guy like Hudler for the third line and not have a problem with the cap.
    And the isles had the space to resign okposo, they too operate under a self imposed budget. They were the masters of their own destiny and their own budget cost them. I wouldn't place the blame on just sayin they made bad decisions.

    Truth is this self imposed budget IS hampering us from putting he best competitive team out there.
    It plays into how we handle making trades(like having to move out our bad contracts in one like the phaneuf trade) so don't start coming in here telling anyone that's got a problem with the budget mentality that they are day dreaming. That's bull

    People think Dung average players like Hudler would suddenly propel us to some higher level?

    Rooneypoo's post was 100% correct. A small market, retooling, Canadian team operating on a slight budget is 100% fair especially given the contracts we need to dish out soon.
    I'm not saying it would propel the team but when your Gm comes out saying the team is in win now mode yet we aren't. Filling in spots with the best possible players I'm left thinking where the budget comes in. the third line RW spot is still wide open hoping someone takes it but that's just hoping. If we were really all in we'd try to fill that void with someone that could right now make us better. We should of went after someone like a Brower. Fact is we didn't. We could be more competitive if in fact we are in win now mode, but something is holding us back.... I wonder what it is...

    Tell you what it isn't: money. Because $5 mil extra in salary isn't turning this team from playoff bubble team to instant playoff favourite.

    We've spend a lot of time building a young core. They've gotta have the time to become something. You can argue that maybe we've built wrong -- your call, and legitimately debatable -- but not that it's a lack of spending holding us back. I'd be the livid if we'd paid $4 mil long term for a 3rd liner. Stupid, reactionary spending -- like spending $9 mil a year on Grabo and Kulemin.

    Who's talking about spending long term? We could use our cap space to get a player with NHL experience and more success than a bunch of players that may or may not pan out fighting for a spot like this year. If you don't think making the playoff consistently and winning a round wouldn't actually help the core of this team become better than you're shutting your eyes.
    And yes even giving a 3-4 years to a good player and maybe trading him by year two if someone is pushing for his spot isn't the worst idea ever. Plenty of teams do it and guess what, it creates assets coming back in the process.

    This whole talk of just sitting on cap space for the sake of future contracts 2-3 years away is absolute crap. It's just playing ostrich to the fact that we could be making the team better. It's not a question of become a playoff bubble team to winning it all! There's plenty of steps in between and bringing in another player to help us along that way isn't ludicrous. But yes, being on an internal budget puts a socket in those cogs. C'mon!

    Seriously, there's people that are freaking out about the budget thinking Melnyk is trying to put a cap floor team together and are scarred to death of retaining player and then there's you're argument where all is well because we resigned a few guys without really improving the team.

    There is a grey area between the two!

    My argument is most certainly not that "all is well." I just happen to think that 9 times out of 10, picking up players via UFA doesn't work. You over pay, in dollars and term, and those moves hurt you long term. I'd much rather see us building through the draft, development, and trade. And that is exactly what we've been doing for the last 3-4 years.

    I can't even process what people are concerned about or are arguing for anymore when they talk about this team and spending. 'Ah, we're a budget team and it's killing us!'. Meanwhile, when the dust settles this year, we're probably going to be spending $68-69 mil with a $73 mil cap. Any sensible team leaves themselves some wiggle room ($2-3 million ish) for call ups and deadline acquisitions anyway. I could get behind a trade to acquire a 3rd liners or bottom pairing D man, but otherwise, I don't see a lot of obvious holes in the roster.

    In the end, if you think this team just isn't good enough and is spinning its wheels, which it may well be, I don't think it has a lot to do with spending. It has to do with who we've spent on. And there might be something there. Ryan needs to be better, for instance, and MacArthur's health is concerning. The team's inability to respond to coaching, to tighten up things in the defensive zone, is also a concern: and I personally think that that is where Karlsson, as the team's leader, really needs to commit and set a good example. That pride of protecting your house just isn't in this team, and there's something to that. But I have to say, I do like the big two moves we've made since last March, adding a legit top 4 D and a 2C. I think this team is better today than it was in February, and that having a healthy roster will also instantly improve us.
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by PTFlea on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:39 am

    I think the budget conspiracies have been quieted for another year (until next off-season).

    Melnyk, who I don't like, stepped up yet again. Now dorion signs Ceci to a 2.75 million bridge and we're set. At least we have some money to add if Lazar sucks offensively again.
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by Ev on Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:22 am

    Ceci should get at least $3 million
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by wprager on Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:47 am

    Has there been a Cup champion in the last few years who didn't have either a top-3 from a good draft or some very fortunate picks/trades?

    Pittsburgh: Crosby(1st), Malkin(2nd), Fleury(1st)
    Chicago: Kane, Toews
    LA: Doughty(2nd), Gaborik(2nd)
    Boston: Horton(3rd), Sequin(2nd)

    Boston is a bit of a stretch since Seguin didn't play that much for them (but did contribute) and wasn't Horton injured and not really a top player by then?

    Anyhow, the Sens simply haven't been *really* bad for a long time. Their last 1st overall was the recently retired Chris Phillips (not a good draft year).


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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by Ev on Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:52 am

    wprager wrote:Has there been a Cup champion in the last few years who didn't have either a top-3 from a good draft or some very fortunate picks/trades?  

    Pittsburgh: Crosby(1st), Malkin(2nd), Fleury(1st)
    Chicago: Kane, Toews
    LA: Doughty(2nd), Gaborik(2nd)
    Boston: Horton(3rd), Sequin(2nd)

    Boston is a bit of a stretch since Seguin didn't play that much for them (but did contribute) and wasn't Horton injured and not really a top player by then?

    Anyhow, the Sens simply haven't been *really* bad for a long time.  Their last 1st overall was the recently retired Chris Phillips (not a good draft year).

    we have Bobby Ryan at #2 and Kyle Turris at #3.
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by wprager on Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:54 am

    http://www.theplayerstribune.com/bobby-ryan-dear-mom/


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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:56 am

    Ev wrote:Ceci should get at least $3 million

    I don't think he takes anything less than 3.5 but we'll see.
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by wprager on Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:56 am

    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:Has there been a Cup champion in the last few years who didn't have either a top-3 from a good draft or some very fortunate picks/trades?  

    Pittsburgh: Crosby(1st), Malkin(2nd), Fleury(1st)
    Chicago: Kane, Toews
    LA: Doughty(2nd), Gaborik(2nd)
    Boston: Horton(3rd), Sequin(2nd)

    Boston is a bit of a stretch since Seguin didn't play that much for them (but did contribute) and wasn't Horton injured and not really a top player by then?

    Anyhow, the Sens simply haven't been *really* bad for a long time.  Their last 1st overall was the recently retired Chris Phillips (not a good draft year).

    we have Bobby Ryan at #2 and Kyle Turris at #3.

    So all we need is a late-blooming Vezina-winning goalie and a 6'9" Norris winner. Mind you, the Bruins went out and got Chara as a UFA, which is the one things that we have not done (and, no, $5M for Kovalev and whatever we paid for Gonchar doesn't count).


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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by Ev on Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:00 pm

    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:Has there been a Cup champion in the last few years who didn't have either a top-3 from a good draft or some very fortunate picks/trades?  

    Pittsburgh: Crosby(1st), Malkin(2nd), Fleury(1st)
    Chicago: Kane, Toews
    LA: Doughty(2nd), Gaborik(2nd)
    Boston: Horton(3rd), Sequin(2nd)

    Boston is a bit of a stretch since Seguin didn't play that much for them (but did contribute) and wasn't Horton injured and not really a top player by then?

    Anyhow, the Sens simply haven't been *really* bad for a long time.  Their last 1st overall was the recently retired Chris Phillips (not a good draft year).

    we have Bobby Ryan at #2 and Kyle Turris at #3.

    So all we need is a late-blooming Vezina-winning goalie and a 6'9" Norris winner.  Mind you, the Bruins went out and got Chara as a UFA, which is the one things that we have not done (and, no, $5M for Kovalev and whatever we paid for Gonchar doesn't count).

    All I'm saying is, you were saying look at these teams who won they cup, they all had Top 3 picks in their lineup. Well, so do we, and we didn't have to lose to do it.
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by SeawaySensFan on Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:01 pm

    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:Has there been a Cup champion in the last few years who didn't have either a top-3 from a good draft or some very fortunate picks/trades?  

    Pittsburgh: Crosby(1st), Malkin(2nd), Fleury(1st)
    Chicago: Kane, Toews
    LA: Doughty(2nd), Gaborik(2nd)
    Boston: Horton(3rd), Sequin(2nd)

    Boston is a bit of a stretch since Seguin didn't play that much for them (but did contribute) and wasn't Horton injured and not really a top player by then?

    Anyhow, the Sens simply haven't been *really* bad for a long time.  Their last 1st overall was the recently retired Chris Phillips (not a good draft year).

    we have Bobby Ryan at #2 and Kyle Turris at #3.

    So all we need is a late-blooming Vezina-winning goalie and a 6'9" Norris winner.  Mind you, the Bruins went out and got Chara as a UFA, which is the one things that we have not done (and, no, $5M for Kovalev and whatever we paid for Gonchar doesn't count).

    All I'm saying is, you were saying look at these teams who won they cup, they all had Top 3 picks in their lineup. Well, so do we, and we didn't have to lose to do it.

    Having said that, "Tank for Yak" was a great idea.
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by Ev on Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:45 pm

    ""This year I'm coming into training camp with a little bit of arrogance and a business-like approach. I'm still going to be the smiley, happy-go-lucky guy but when that puck drops I'm not going to be stopped. I'm going to do whatever it takes to get the job done."

    Lazar ready for a big season.
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    Re: Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

    Post by Flo The Action on Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:15 pm

    SeawaySensFan wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    wprager wrote:Has there been a Cup champion in the last few years who didn't have either a top-3 from a good draft or some very fortunate picks/trades?  

    Pittsburgh: Crosby(1st), Malkin(2nd), Fleury(1st)
    Chicago: Kane, Toews
    LA: Doughty(2nd), Gaborik(2nd)
    Boston: Horton(3rd), Sequin(2nd)

    Boston is a bit of a stretch since Seguin didn't play that much for them (but did contribute) and wasn't Horton injured and not really a top player by then?

    Anyhow, the Sens simply haven't been *really* bad for a long time.  Their last 1st overall was the recently retired Chris Phillips (not a good draft year).

    we have Bobby Ryan at #2 and Kyle Turris at #3.

    So all we need is a late-blooming Vezina-winning goalie and a 6'9" Norris winner.  Mind you, the Bruins went out and got Chara as a UFA, which is the one things that we have not done (and, no, $5M for Kovalev and whatever we paid for Gonchar doesn't count).

    All I'm saying is, you were saying look at these teams who won they cup, they all had Top 3 picks in their lineup. Well, so do we, and we didn't have to lose to do it.

    Having said that, "Tank for Yak" was a great idea.
    I believe the saying was "fail for Nail" and yes that pretty Much blew up in edmonton's face. Nice to see that 1st overall picks can still bust expectations and it's nice that it happened to Edmonton. Now if it could just happen to Toronto...

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