Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Share

    spader
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 10065
    Registration date : 2009-07-09

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by spader on Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:08 pm

    Ev wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    MarkStone wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    MarkStone wrote:lmao so a Ottawa lady rabbi "wakes up to a swastika" on her door and she blames it on Trump. Who she's ripped on for months. Hmmmm
    See i thought that's a perfect example. So because she ripped on trump and she's Jewish it makes it ok for someone to do this? That's exactly what wrong with this picture.
    Oh wait! I thought we were all entileled to our own opinion!
    Apparently not.

    What does this have to do with opinions exactly? No it's not a good thing (if it's real - it may be faked), just saying it's complete lunacy to immediately think of Trump when something like this happens. News flash, this has happened every now and then forever. To blame Trump winning the election is just stupid lmao. Trump is anti-semite now? Just wow. People are just so brainwashed.

    If you read the woman's facebook, you immediately see how looney she comes off as. SJWs, man.

    if you honestly agree with this woman that this kind of thing in Ottawa was caused by the US election, then sorry but you're nuts .

    FrNkly I'm beginning to think you live a very sheltered life. If you don't think trump winning the election and the rise of hate crimes that have been perpetrated aren't linked you live in a bubble. Him winning the election is completely legitimizing people to go out and perpetrate hate crimes. Even on this side of the border. His winning the election has been viewed by the extreme right as a change in political leanings of the greater population(wrongfully) and they will try and capitalize on the opportunity to have their opinions heard and perpetrate whatever they feel are legitimate actions.

    2nd for you to even think that someone would fake a hate crime. You are a little white privileged Dung. Seriously. I don't have time for you anymore. You're completely disconnected with the ply of those that aren't so privileged as you. You are part of the problem.

    Are you this dense and ignorant? There have been countless cases of people faking hate crimes in the last months. It shows how brainwashed you are. i didn't say this is the case here, but it's completely possible and there are a few reasons why that might be the case here, but I want explain this to you because you will just ignore it like everything else.

    Theres no changing you. You are a fool and this is why talking politics is so stupid. you aren't for social justice, youre for one side and are bitter if you don't get your way.

    Lastly talking about white privilege when we're talking about a white girl is so Cussing hilarious. Your statement makes no sense. The girl is white! She has white privilege just like any other white person! She's been privileged her whole life! So take that Dung elesewhere because it makes you look like a jack Donkey, which I already knew you were. But wait tell me more about how your schooling and social work makes you know it all.

    If you're talking about the rabbi, I think you're mistaken. Jewish people have never been considered white in these contexts. In fact, there was a period of time when they were actually considered black. If you've ever come across the term "swarthy," it's usually used in a racist manner to describe Jewish people (it refers to a brownish skin tone). 

    If you ever hear white supremacists speak or read anything they write about Jewish people, you'll see that, at least in those (extremely racist) spaces, Jewish people are considered the furthest thing from white. 

    It's actually an interesting topic to look at what people mean when they say "white." Particularly when you look at the interactions with people from Eastern Russia (who may have white skin but also suffered some serious racism...for example, look at the origin of the word "slave"). There is a massive literature on the topic. 

    But, to make a long story short, while many Jewish people have white skin, they've been subject to a litany of abuses by white power types. In racialized spaces, they simply aren't included in the "white" category.

    wprager
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Number of posts : 47937
    Registration date : 2008-08-05

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by wprager on Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:09 pm

    spader wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    wprager wrote:I am not a Trump supporter,  although I have a few in my extended family.  Two brothers in law ( both sides of the border), a 19 year old niece who is an artist ( that one was a shock, still wondering if it was some kind of joke or performance art) and my own sister lives on Dallas!   So I am used to having to tread carefully.

    Clearly, the main combatants here do not have to carefully navigate family meetings or other discussions.

    Please, can someone show me exactly where Trump said he wanted to tag *all* Muslims?  And what does it have to do with race?

    This is CNN but there are others out there if you bother to google it
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/20/opinions/obeidallah-trump-anti-muslim/

    Maybe you won't like his one because it's the libreral Huffington post but it is what it is.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83

    And here's this lovely one. I mean who you surround yourself with in the Oval Office  is a clear indication of what you represent
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/donald-trump-presidency.html?_r=0
    I mean Bannon's anti-Jew sentiments are well documented.

    You can argue that Muslims are not a race but more often than not they aren't white.

    You're right though. I don't have to argue with any family members about trump. I do have a couple of Quebec separatists in my family though. That always makes for some interesting exchanges when it surfaces. They aren't hard-line though. I think it's the age they are and are left over from the 60's separatist movements. Anyways. I digress.

    Don't try to muddy the waters with facts.  Sarcasm

    Yeah, the nerve of the guy.

    Still, how much is rhetoric and how much is malotrumpism? He has absolutely no filter on his mouth.

    Also, I just watched that interview and Trump is talking about several things at the same time. The reporter asks if there should be a database and Trump replies: "There should be a lot of systems, beyond database ...and today you could do it" When the reporter then asks him whether Trump's WH would implement this I think Trump is still talking about "a lot of systems" and not, specifically, about a database registry. Just before that question he says "...but right now we have to have a border, we have to have strength, we have to have a wall..." He is almost still in the middle of that stream of thought when the reporter interrupts him and asks if this is something his White House would implement.

    The reporter is banging on the same one drum, while Trump is talking about keep illegal aliens from entering the country. Later another reporter tries to bait him by repeatedly asking how setting up a muslim database would be different from what the Nazis did to the Jews. Trump does not deal with this one head on. Not sure why. He should have just said "I never said that" -- he did that, later, tweeting that it was the reporter who brought up the idea of the database. He should have said that right then and there. Instead he comes across like a smug jerk (saying "Why don't you tell me").

    He is not a great communicator, that's for sure. But he certainly speaks like he thinks he is.

    wprager
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Number of posts : 47937
    Registration date : 2008-08-05

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by wprager on Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:12 pm

    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    MarkStone wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    MarkStone wrote:lmao so a Ottawa lady rabbi "wakes up to a swastika" on her door and she blames it on Trump. Who she's ripped on for months. Hmmmm
    See i thought that's a perfect example. So because she ripped on trump and she's Jewish it makes it ok for someone to do this? That's exactly what wrong with this picture.
    Oh wait! I thought we were all entileled to our own opinion!
    Apparently not.

    What does this have to do with opinions exactly? No it's not a good thing (if it's real - it may be faked), just saying it's complete lunacy to immediately think of Trump when something like this happens. News flash, this has happened every now and then forever. To blame Trump winning the election is just stupid lmao. Trump is anti-semite now? Just wow. People are just so brainwashed.

    If you read the woman's facebook, you immediately see how looney she comes off as. SJWs, man.

    if you honestly agree with this woman that this kind of thing in Ottawa was caused by the US election, then sorry but you're nuts .

    FrNkly I'm beginning to think you live a very sheltered life. If you don't think trump winning the election and the rise of hate crimes that have been perpetrated aren't linked you live in a bubble. Him winning the election is completely legitimizing people to go out and perpetrate hate crimes. Even on this side of the border. His winning the election has been viewed by the extreme right as a change in political leanings of the greater population(wrongfully) and they will try and capitalize on the opportunity to have their opinions heard and perpetrate whatever they feel are legitimate actions.

    2nd for you to even think that someone would fake a hate crime. You are a little white privileged Dung. Seriously. I don't have time for you anymore. You're completely disconnected with the ply of those that aren't so privileged as you. You are part of the problem.

    Are you this dense and ignorant? There have been countless cases of people faking hate crimes in the last months. It shows how brainwashed you are. i didn't say this is the case here, but it's completely possible and there are a few reasons why that might be the case here, but I want explain this to you because you will just ignore it like everything else.

    Theres no changing you. You are a fool and this is why talking politics is so stupid. you aren't for social justice, youre for one side and are bitter if you don't get your way.

    Lastly talking about white privilege when we're talking about a white girl is so Cussing hilarious. Your statement makes no sense. The girl is white! She has white privilege just like any other white person! She's been privileged her whole life! So take that Dung elesewhere because it makes you look like a jack Donkey, which I already knew you were. But wait tell me more about how your schooling and social work makes you know it all.

    If you're talking about the rabbi, I think you're mistaken. Jewish people have never been considered white in these contexts. In fact, there was a period of time when they were actually considered black. If you've ever come across the term "swarthy," it's usually used in a racist manner to describe Jewish people (it refers to a brownish skin tone). 

    If you ever hear white supremacists speak or read anything they write about Jewish people, you'll see that, at least in those (extremely racist) spaces, Jewish people are considered the furthest thing from white. 

    It's actually an interesting topic to look at what people mean when they say "white." Particularly when you look at the interactions with people from Eastern Russia (who may have white skin but also suffered some serious racism...for example, look at the origin of the word "slave"). There is a massive literature on the topic. 

    But, to make a long story short, while many Jewish people have white skin, they've been subject to a litany of abuses by white power types. In racialized spaces, they simply aren't included in the "white" category.

    Interestingly, the Obama Democrats have not been very friendly to Israel.
    avatar
    wprager
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Number of posts : 47937
    Age : 55
    Location : Kanata
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-08-05

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by wprager on Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:22 pm



    Wait, wouldn't that apply both the good and the bad?


    _________________
    Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
    - Dicky Fox
    avatar
    spader
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 10065
    Age : 37
    Location : Toronto
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2009-07-09

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by spader on Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:33 pm

    wprager wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    wprager wrote:I am not a Trump supporter,  although I have a few in my extended family.  Two brothers in law ( both sides of the border), a 19 year old niece who is an artist ( that one was a shock, still wondering if it was some kind of joke or performance art) and my own sister lives on Dallas!   So I am used to having to tread carefully.

    Clearly, the main combatants here do not have to carefully navigate family meetings or other discussions.

    Please, can someone show me exactly where Trump said he wanted to tag *all* Muslims?  And what does it have to do with race?

    This is CNN but there are others out there if you bother to google it
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/20/opinions/obeidallah-trump-anti-muslim/

    Maybe you won't like his one because it's the libreral Huffington post but it is what it is.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83

    And here's this lovely one. I mean who you surround yourself with in the Oval Office  is a clear indication of what you represent
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/donald-trump-presidency.html?_r=0
    I mean Bannon's anti-Jew sentiments are well documented.

    You can argue that Muslims are not a race but more often than not they aren't white.

    You're right though. I don't have to argue with any family members about trump. I do have a couple of Quebec separatists in my family though. That always makes for some interesting exchanges when it surfaces. They aren't hard-line though. I think it's the age they are and are left over from the 60's separatist movements. Anyways. I digress.

    Don't try to muddy the waters with facts.  Sarcasm

    Yeah, the nerve of the guy.

    Still, how much is rhetoric and how much is malotrumpism?  He has absolutely no filter on his mouth.

    Also, I just watched that interview and Trump is talking about several things at the same time.  The reporter asks if there should be a database and Trump replies: "There should be a lot of systems, beyond database ...and today you could do it"  When the reporter then asks him whether Trump's WH would implement this I think Trump is still talking about "a lot of systems" and not, specifically, about a database registry.  Just before that question he says "...but right now we have to have a border, we have to have strength, we have to have a wall..."  He is almost still in the middle of that stream of thought when the reporter interrupts him and asks if this is something his White House would implement.

    The reporter is banging on the same one drum, while Trump is talking about keep illegal aliens from entering the country.  Later another reporter tries to bait him by repeatedly asking how setting up a muslim database would be different from what the Nazis did to the Jews.    Trump does not deal with this one head on.  Not sure why.  He should have just said "I never said that" -- he did that, later, tweeting that it was the reporter who brought up the idea of the database.  He should have said that right then and there.  Instead he comes across like a smug jerk (saying "Why don't you tell me").

    He is not a great communicator, that's for sure.  But he certainly speaks like he thinks he is.  

    I think you hit on a really important point. But one thing has become clear to me: whether or not Trump is a racist or whatever, a lot of people feel emboldened by his victory and turning off their internal filters. I think it's a shame.
    avatar
    spader
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 10065
    Age : 37
    Location : Toronto
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2009-07-09

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by spader on Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:41 pm

    wprager wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    MarkStone wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    MarkStone wrote:lmao so a Ottawa lady rabbi "wakes up to a swastika" on her door and she blames it on Trump. Who she's ripped on for months. Hmmmm
    See i thought that's a perfect example. So because she ripped on trump and she's Jewish it makes it ok for someone to do this? That's exactly what wrong with this picture.
    Oh wait! I thought we were all entileled to our own opinion!
    Apparently not.

    What does this have to do with opinions exactly? No it's not a good thing (if it's real - it may be faked), just saying it's complete lunacy to immediately think of Trump when something like this happens. News flash, this has happened every now and then forever. To blame Trump winning the election is just stupid lmao. Trump is anti-semite now? Just wow. People are just so brainwashed.

    If you read the woman's facebook, you immediately see how looney she comes off as. SJWs, man.

    if you honestly agree with this woman that this kind of thing in Ottawa was caused by the US election, then sorry but you're nuts .

    FrNkly I'm beginning to think you live a very sheltered life. If you don't think trump winning the election and the rise of hate crimes that have been perpetrated aren't linked you live in a bubble. Him winning the election is completely legitimizing people to go out and perpetrate hate crimes. Even on this side of the border. His winning the election has been viewed by the extreme right as a change in political leanings of the greater population(wrongfully) and they will try and capitalize on the opportunity to have their opinions heard and perpetrate whatever they feel are legitimate actions.

    2nd for you to even think that someone would fake a hate crime. You are a little white privileged Dung. Seriously. I don't have time for you anymore. You're completely disconnected with the ply of those that aren't so privileged as you. You are part of the problem.

    Are you this dense and ignorant? There have been countless cases of people faking hate crimes in the last months. It shows how brainwashed you are. i didn't say this is the case here, but it's completely possible and there are a few reasons why that might be the case here, but I want explain this to you because you will just ignore it like everything else.

    Theres no changing you. You are a fool and this is why talking politics is so stupid. you aren't for social justice, youre for one side and are bitter if you don't get your way.

    Lastly talking about white privilege when we're talking about a white girl is so Cussing hilarious. Your statement makes no sense. The girl is white! She has white privilege just like any other white person! She's been privileged her whole life! So take that Dung elesewhere because it makes you look like a jack Donkey, which I already knew you were. But wait tell me more about how your schooling and social work makes you know it all.

    If you're talking about the rabbi, I think you're mistaken. Jewish people have never been considered white in these contexts. In fact, there was a period of time when they were actually considered black. If you've ever come across the term "swarthy," it's usually used in a racist manner to describe Jewish people (it refers to a brownish skin tone). 

    If you ever hear white supremacists speak or read anything they write about Jewish people, you'll see that, at least in those (extremely racist) spaces, Jewish people are considered the furthest thing from white. 

    It's actually an interesting topic to look at what people mean when they say "white." Particularly when you look at the interactions with people from Eastern Russia (who may have white skin but also suffered some serious racism...for example, look at the origin of the word "slave"). There is a massive literature on the topic. 

    But, to make a long story short, while many Jewish people have white skin, they've been subject to a litany of abuses by white power types. In racialized spaces, they simply aren't included in the "white" category.

    Interestingly, the Obama Democrats have not been very friendly to Israel.  

    That's a whole can of worms. I read a graphic memoir this summer called Palestine. I highly recommend it. It offers a perspective that I wasn't familiar with before. Just a heads up, you can probably guess this from the title, but there's a pretty significant bias.
    avatar
    spader
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 10065
    Age : 37
    Location : Toronto
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2009-07-09

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by spader on Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:08 pm

    avatar
    Flo The Action
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 13115
    Age : 41
    Location : montreal
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-12-18

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by Flo The Action on Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:12 pm

    wprager wrote:

    Wait, wouldn't that apply both the good and the bad?
    I seriously hope he doesn't put into action everything he suggested.
    avatar
    Flo The Action
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 13115
    Age : 41
    Location : montreal
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-12-18

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by Flo The Action on Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:21 pm

    wprager wrote:
    spader wrote:
    Ev wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    MarkStone wrote:
    Flo The Action wrote:
    MarkStone wrote:lmao so a Ottawa lady rabbi "wakes up to a swastika" on her door and she blames it on Trump. Who she's ripped on for months. Hmmmm
    See i thought that's a perfect example. So because she ripped on trump and she's Jewish it makes it ok for someone to do this? That's exactly what wrong with this picture.
    Oh wait! I thought we were all entileled to our own opinion!
    Apparently not.

    What does this have to do with opinions exactly? No it's not a good thing (if it's real - it may be faked), just saying it's complete lunacy to immediately think of Trump when something like this happens. News flash, this has happened every now and then forever. To blame Trump winning the election is just stupid lmao. Trump is anti-semite now? Just wow. People are just so brainwashed.

    If you read the woman's facebook, you immediately see how looney she comes off as. SJWs, man.

    if you honestly agree with this woman that this kind of thing in Ottawa was caused by the US election, then sorry but you're nuts .

    FrNkly I'm beginning to think you live a very sheltered life. If you don't think trump winning the election and the rise of hate crimes that have been perpetrated aren't linked you live in a bubble. Him winning the election is completely legitimizing people to go out and perpetrate hate crimes. Even on this side of the border. His winning the election has been viewed by the extreme right as a change in political leanings of the greater population(wrongfully) and they will try and capitalize on the opportunity to have their opinions heard and perpetrate whatever they feel are legitimate actions.

    2nd for you to even think that someone would fake a hate crime. You are a little white privileged Dung. Seriously. I don't have time for you anymore. You're completely disconnected with the ply of those that aren't so privileged as you. You are part of the problem.

    Are you this dense and ignorant? There have been countless cases of people faking hate crimes in the last months. It shows how brainwashed you are. i didn't say this is the case here, but it's completely possible and there are a few reasons why that might be the case here, but I want explain this to you because you will just ignore it like everything else.

    Theres no changing you. You are a fool and this is why talking politics is so stupid. you aren't for social justice, youre for one side and are bitter if you don't get your way.

    Lastly talking about white privilege when we're talking about a white girl is so Cussing hilarious. Your statement makes no sense. The girl is white! She has white privilege just like any other white person! She's been privileged her whole life! So take that Dung elesewhere because it makes you look like a jack Donkey, which I already knew you were. But wait tell me more about how your schooling and social work makes you know it all.

    If you're talking about the rabbi, I think you're mistaken. Jewish people have never been considered white in these contexts. In fact, there was a period of time when they were actually considered black. If you've ever come across the term "swarthy," it's usually used in a racist manner to describe Jewish people (it refers to a brownish skin tone). 

    If you ever hear white supremacists speak or read anything they write about Jewish people, you'll see that, at least in those (extremely racist) spaces, Jewish people are considered the furthest thing from white. 

    It's actually an interesting topic to look at what people mean when they say "white." Particularly when you look at the interactions with people from Eastern Russia (who may have white skin but also suffered some serious racism...for example, look at the origin of the word "slave"). There is a massive literature on the topic. 

    But, to make a long story short, while many Jewish people have white skin, they've been subject to a litany of abuses by white power types. In racialized spaces, they simply aren't included in the "white" category.

    Interestingly, the Obama Democrats have not been very friendly to Israel.  
    You think? I. Left with the impression that American administrations have been fairly supportive of the Israeli state. They enjoy the business that upgrading their military might provides and the local operations that having an Allie in the Middle East provides.
    If anything it be great if they put more pressure to recognize a Palestinian state and put a stop to their oppression. Might actually get a few less conflict off their back from the Muslim extremists. Kind of a factor as to why they are in their mess.
    avatar
    wprager
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Number of posts : 47937
    Age : 55
    Location : Kanata
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-08-05

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by wprager on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:02 pm

    Don't get me started about the Palestinian "state".  It's funny how nobody wanted that piece of dry desert until Israel turned out into the land of milk and honey.x


    _________________
    Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
    - Dicky Fox
    avatar
    spader
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 10065
    Age : 37
    Location : Toronto
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2009-07-09

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by spader on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:37 am

    wprager wrote:Don't get me started about the Palestinian "state".  It's funny how nobody wanted that piece of dry desert until Israel turned out into the land of milk and honey.x

    You say that like there weren't people living there.
    avatar
    Flo The Action
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 13115
    Age : 41
    Location : montreal
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-12-18

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by Flo The Action on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:10 am

    spader wrote:
    wprager wrote:Don't get me started about the Palestinian "state".  It's funny how nobody wanted that piece of dry desert until Israel turned out into the land of milk and honey.x

    You say that like there weren't people living there.

    I'm gonna take a gamble here by saying that he meant that the rest of the Middle East didnt care much for Palestine until the west created the Israeli state. Which he would be right. But who really likes having foreign powers mess around in your backyard. Even if it was the backyard you didn't upkeep.
    My sorrirs usually are with the actual Palestinian people.
    avatar
    spader
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 10065
    Age : 37
    Location : Toronto
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2009-07-09

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by spader on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:18 am

    Flo The Action wrote:
    spader wrote:
    wprager wrote:Don't get me started about the Palestinian "state".  It's funny how nobody wanted that piece of dry desert until Israel turned out into the land of milk and honey.x

    You say that like there weren't people living there.

    I'm gonna take a gamble here by saying that he meant that the rest of the Middle East didnt care much for Palestine until the west created the Israeli state. Which he would be right. But who really likes having foreign powers mess around in your backyard. Even if it was the backyard you didn't upkeep.
    My sorrirs usually are with the actual Palestinian people.

    I must have misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying.
    avatar
    wprager
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Number of posts : 47937
    Age : 55
    Location : Kanata
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-08-05

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by wprager on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:02 am

    Read this:
    http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Why-World-Opinion-Matters/Are-Arabs-the-indigenous-people-of-Palestine-402785

    In history, art and literature there is no trace at all of any Muslim people referred to by anybody as “Palestinians.”

    “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (The Peel Commission Report - 1937)

    In other words, they weren't there in big numbers before then.

    British PM Winston Churchill said in 1939: “.. far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country

    In other words, they were not there at the start.

    British PM Winston Churchill said in 1939: “.. far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country

    The term "Palestinian Nation" was invented in the 20th century.

    We first hear of Arabs referred to as "Palestinians" when Egypt’s President Nasser, with help from the Russian KGB, established the "Palestine Liberation Organization" in 1964. It was only during the 1970s that the newly minted “Palestinians” began to promote their narrative through murder and assassination. The Arabs have justified their attacks as acts of the indigenous people struggling for national liberation.

    [quote]Many individual authors have challenged the “Palestinian” narrative. Among these, one of the most ambitious was Joan Peters, who in 1984 published her thoroughly researched study of Arab immigration into Palestine, From Time Immemorial (FTI). Peters assembled many accounts of 19th century travelers’ journeys through the Holy Land that paint the picture of a forsaken and almost uninhabited land. [quote]

    Peters documents how the current land of Israel with its millions of Arabs and Jews gradually emerged from its desolate 19th century beginnings. She analyzes the respective populations of Muslims, Christians and Jews based on data available from existing sources including Ottoman census figures, government documents, old publications, scientific research, etc.

    The problem was that the book was over 600 pages so people like you and me would never bother to read it. Instead we hear what the media is feeding us.

    Based on established facts and population growth in neighboring countries, it can be estimated that the indigenous population of Palestine would be around 453,000; the actual population is closing in on 11 million!

    Please, take the time to read the above.



    _________________
    Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
    - Dicky Fox
    avatar
    wprager
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Number of posts : 47937
    Age : 55
    Location : Kanata
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-08-05

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by wprager on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:05 am

    This sums it up better than I could.

    Despite the substantial documentation assembled by Peters, demonstrating massive Arab immigration into Palestine, anti-Israel propagandists continue to deny it. Based on what we know today, and the simple truths of basic math, the issue has become clear and unambiguous. All historic records indicate that only insignificant number of long-term settled Muslims were present in Palestine before 1882, when the large Jewish immigration began. Muslim Arab numbers increased dramatically as Jewish settlements developed infrastructure and provided work opportunities to Arabs from the neighboring countries.

    Also worth noting is that the “indigenous” 4.3% comprised many non-Arab nationalities. All of them were swamped by the Arab immigrants and within a few generations largely lost their identity.

    Given the complete absence of any historical record to the contrary, we can authoritatively say that the “Palestinian people” never existed until they were invented in the 1960s as a tool for continuing the Arab war against Israel.

    The claim that “Palestinians” are the indigenous people of Israel and that most of the present Palestinian Arabs have lived in these lands since time immemorial is a total fraud. Albeit posthumously, Joan Peters has had the last word on the subject.


    _________________
    Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
    - Dicky Fox
    avatar
    Flo The Action
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 13115
    Age : 41
    Location : montreal
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-12-18

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by Flo The Action on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:26 pm

    Omg. There's a can of worm waiting to be hopened there.

    I just want to point out that populations used to vary and migrate in many undeveloped countries up until the early part of the 20th century. The definition of borders has largely been a western construct and clear defined national lines for populations to rgisternto also emerged from the same construct.
    Was Palestine less populated? I'm sure it was. The fact that national lines were erected clearly set divides as to where populations were allowed to reside. It's hard to dispute that there wasn't a population in the area before Israel was created by the west following World War Two. Outside of religious identity the world Jewish community not previously living on that land held little claim to the land and the Jewish population held the same claim as any other population living there.
    Of course wide scale development attracted more people, so did it attract more Jewish settlers. But that's basic economics. It's the supremacy over the land since then by the Israeli state that is questionable.

    As far as it is all concerned and going forward I do not believe one side should have rights over the other. I believe it was a total mismanagement of national creation. There are parallels that could be drawn to the conflicts in Northern Ireland. I believe the only way to resolve this is to one day have the Jewish and Muslim (and Christian) populations form a coalition government to govern over the area that takes the interests of all parties into its governance. Unfortunetely we are still a long way away from that.
    avatar
    wprager
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Number of posts : 47937
    Age : 55
    Location : Kanata
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-08-05

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by wprager on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:04 pm

    Bottom line, there was no notion of a "nation" of Palestine until it became convenient to the argument.

    The so-called exodus of '48 started because of the impending war of the neighboring Arab states on Israel. The wealthy residents left first, then the not-so-wealthy ones did as well, to stay with friends/relatives in neighboring states. They had the full intention of coming back when the war was over -- as they anticipated it would only take a few days for the combined Arab forces to annihilate Israel.

    Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref wrote this in his history of the 1948 war:

    The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy.

    By the end of January 1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal the borders against them.

    Meanwhile, Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel. The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this appeal on October 2, 1947:

    We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals.

    Yes, there were hawks on the Jewish side, for sure. There are extremists on both sides of just about every conflict. But the numbers/percentages of such extremists are very one-sided.

    In Israel's Proclamation of Independence includes the following:

    In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

    Sure, you can go ahead and say they were disingenuous in this statement, but that's still more than you can say of a "nation" that routinely gets its young men/women and even children to strap explosive devices to their chests and go into crowded areas.


    _________________
    Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
    - Dicky Fox
    avatar
    Flo The Action
    All-Star
    All-Star

    Number of posts : 13115
    Age : 41
    Location : montreal
    Favorite Team : Ottawa
    Registration date : 2008-12-18

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by Flo The Action on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:49 pm

    wprager wrote:Bottom line, there was no notion of a "nation" of Palestine until it became convenient to the argument.  

    The so-called exodus of '48 started because of the impending war of the neighboring Arab states on Israel.  The wealthy residents left first, then the not-so-wealthy ones did as well, to stay with friends/relatives in neighboring states.  They had the full intention of coming back when the war was over -- as they anticipated it would only take a few days for the combined Arab forces to annihilate Israel.

    Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref wrote this in his history of the 1948 war:

    The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy.

    By the end of January 1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal the borders against them.

    Meanwhile, Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel. The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this appeal on October 2, 1947:

    We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals.

    Yes, there were hawks on the Jewish side, for sure.  There are extremists on both sides of just about every conflict.  But the numbers/percentages of such extremists are very one-sided.  

    In Israel's Proclamation of Independence includes the following:

    In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

    Sure, you can go ahead and say they were disingenuous in this statement, but that's still more than you can say of a "nation" that routinely gets its young men/women and even children to strap explosive devices to their chests and go into crowded areas.  
    You can call the Palestinian counterattack extreme but it is more desperate. It is the result IMO of state terrorism perpetrated by the state of Israel. Look at the diminished Palestine land of that has been "reclaimed" by Israel from the Palestinians. You can use the declarations all you want it still doesn't represent the level of repression and abuse it has aimed towards that population. It is extremely bloody on both sides. The difference is Palestinian are using measures such as suicide bombing while the repression from Israeli is using military large scale assault killing far more people.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:53 pm