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Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between

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121 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:26 pm

Flo The Action


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Omg. There's a can of worm waiting to be hopened there.

I just want to point out that populations used to vary and migrate in many undeveloped countries up until the early part of the 20th century. The definition of borders has largely been a western construct and clear defined national lines for populations to rgisternto also emerged from the same construct.
Was Palestine less populated? I'm sure it was. The fact that national lines were erected clearly set divides as to where populations were allowed to reside. It's hard to dispute that there wasn't a population in the area before Israel was created by the west following World War Two. Outside of religious identity the world Jewish community not previously living on that land held little claim to the land and the Jewish population held the same claim as any other population living there.
Of course wide scale development attracted more people, so did it attract more Jewish settlers. But that's basic economics. It's the supremacy over the land since then by the Israeli state that is questionable.

As far as it is all concerned and going forward I do not believe one side should have rights over the other. I believe it was a total mismanagement of national creation. There are parallels that could be drawn to the conflicts in Northern Ireland. I believe the only way to resolve this is to one day have the Jewish and Muslim (and Christian) populations form a coalition government to govern over the area that takes the interests of all parties into its governance. Unfortunetely we are still a long way away from that.

122 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:04 pm

wprager


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Bottom line, there was no notion of a "nation" of Palestine until it became convenient to the argument.

The so-called exodus of '48 started because of the impending war of the neighboring Arab states on Israel. The wealthy residents left first, then the not-so-wealthy ones did as well, to stay with friends/relatives in neighboring states. They had the full intention of coming back when the war was over -- as they anticipated it would only take a few days for the combined Arab forces to annihilate Israel.

Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref wrote this in his history of the 1948 war:

The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy.

By the end of January 1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal the borders against them.

Meanwhile, Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel. The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this appeal on October 2, 1947:

We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals.

Yes, there were hawks on the Jewish side, for sure. There are extremists on both sides of just about every conflict. But the numbers/percentages of such extremists are very one-sided.

In Israel's Proclamation of Independence includes the following:

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

Sure, you can go ahead and say they were disingenuous in this statement, but that's still more than you can say of a "nation" that routinely gets its young men/women and even children to strap explosive devices to their chests and go into crowded areas.

123 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:49 pm

Flo The Action


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wprager wrote:Bottom line, there was no notion of a "nation" of Palestine until it became convenient to the argument.  

The so-called exodus of '48 started because of the impending war of the neighboring Arab states on Israel.  The wealthy residents left first, then the not-so-wealthy ones did as well, to stay with friends/relatives in neighboring states.  They had the full intention of coming back when the war was over -- as they anticipated it would only take a few days for the combined Arab forces to annihilate Israel.

Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref wrote this in his history of the 1948 war:

The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy.

By the end of January 1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal the borders against them.

Meanwhile, Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel. The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this appeal on October 2, 1947:

We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals.

Yes, there were hawks on the Jewish side, for sure.  There are extremists on both sides of just about every conflict.  But the numbers/percentages of such extremists are very one-sided.  

In Israel's Proclamation of Independence includes the following:

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

Sure, you can go ahead and say they were disingenuous in this statement, but that's still more than you can say of a "nation" that routinely gets its young men/women and even children to strap explosive devices to their chests and go into crowded areas.  
You can call the Palestinian counterattack extreme but it is more desperate. It is the result IMO of state terrorism perpetrated by the state of Israel. Look at the diminished Palestine land of that has been "reclaimed" by Israel from the Palestinians. You can use the declarations all you want it still doesn't represent the level of repression and abuse it has aimed towards that population. It is extremely bloody on both sides. The difference is Palestinian are using measures such as suicide bombing while the repression from Israeli is using military large scale assault killing far more people.

124 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:08 pm

spader

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That's actually really interesting. I don't pretend to be an expert on the topic, though I know a lot more about the current state of affairs now than I did before I read that graphic memoir. Thanks for the background, prags. It's a very controversial topic and, like any controversial topic, gaining access to multiple perspectives engenders much deeper and more valuable understanding.

To get back to the topic at hand, this is why people like me were so surprised by Trump's win. We didn't take the time to get out of our echo chamber and understand where the other side was coming from.

125 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:36 pm

SeawaySensFan

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wprager wrote:

Sure, you can go ahead and say they were disingenuous in this statement, but that's still more than you can say of a "nation" that routinely gets its young men/women and even children to strap explosive devices to their chests and go into crowded areas.  

If they could afford warplanes, tanks and missiles like Israel, they wouldn't have to resort to this sort of improvisation.

126 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:51 pm

wprager

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SeawaySensFan wrote:
wprager wrote:

Sure, you can go ahead and say they were disingenuous in this statement, but that's still more than you can say of a "nation" that routinely gets its young men/women and even children to strap explosive devices to their chests and go into crowded areas.  

If they could afford warplanes, tanks and missiles like Israel, they wouldn't have to resort to this sort of improvisation.

Umm, what?

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,782141,00.html
In the mid-1990s, Arafat controlled a financial empire worth at least $3 billion.

If it wasn't for oil money the war in the Middle East would be fought with stones and knives. And it would be 99% between warring Arab nations. There's a ton of oil money down there and if they wanted to they could outfit all the jihad warriors with the best weapons.


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127 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:59 pm

SeawaySensFan

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wprager wrote:
SeawaySensFan wrote:
wprager wrote:

Sure, you can go ahead and say they were disingenuous in this statement, but that's still more than you can say of a "nation" that routinely gets its young men/women and even children to strap explosive devices to their chests and go into crowded areas.  

If they could afford warplanes, tanks and missiles like Israel, they wouldn't have to resort to this sort of improvisation.

Umm, what?  

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,782141,00.html
In the mid-1990s, Arafat controlled a financial empire worth at least $3 billion.

If it wasn't for oil money the war in the Middle East would be fought with stones and knives.  And it would be 99% between warring Arab nations.  There's a ton of oil money down there and if they wanted to they could outfit all the jihad warriors with the best weapons.  

IF THEY COULD AFFORD WARPLANES, TANKS AND MISSILES LIKE ISRAEL, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO RESORT TO THIS SORT OF IMPROVISATION.

Israel spent 16 billion on defense in 2015 alone.

128 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:53 pm

wprager

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That's the operative word, isn't it.  DEFENSE


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Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

129 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:17 pm

SeawaySensFan

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wprager wrote:That's the operative word, isn't it.  DEFENSE

Sure it is.

130 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:13 pm

spader

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wprager wrote:That's the operative word, isn't it.  DEFENSE

You should read that graphic memoir I mentioned.

131 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:34 pm

SeawaySensFan

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spader wrote:
wprager wrote:That's the operative word, isn't it.  DEFENSE

You should read that graphic memoir I mentioned.

Written by former Avs coach, Joe Sacco. How about that?!

132 Re: Trump, Clinton, and Everything in Between on Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:37 am

spader

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SeawaySensFan wrote:
spader wrote:
wprager wrote:That's the operative word, isn't it.  DEFENSE

You should read that graphic memoir I mentioned.

Written by former Avs coach, Joe Sacco. How about that?!

Heh. Nice connection.

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