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tim1_2


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Ev wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:Ended up going down a YouTube hole the other day, watching a pile of highlights from last year's playoff run.  Yes, I'd like to keep Karlsson please.  He was so good...if he can be close to that good, again, in the playoffs for us.....

The issue is if he’s not, that’s a ton of cap space to eat for one player. When karlsson is bad, he’s really bad (defensively).

Totally agree. If he had had another great year, then there's no argument that resigning him is the right call. It's a tough situation at the best of times, and now everything is just muddied that much more by Crazy Euge and the financial situation. If we had stable ownership, and the decision was made to move on from EK due to the massive impending cap hit and questions about how well he'll perform for the next 8 years, I could be sold on that. As things stand now, I'll be left wondering about the whole mess if and when we trade him.

Lagoon


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tim1_2 wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:Ended up going down a YouTube hole the other day, watching a pile of highlights from last year's playoff run.  Yes, I'd like to keep Karlsson please.  He was so good...if he can be close to that good, again, in the playoffs 
People have very short memories and it is sad because Karlsson is so good and was injured this season. I always laugh when people say they want to trade the Karlsson from this season. They forget that when they do that, they are trading the Karlsson from all 5 seasons prior too. Ignorance is bliss.

At the same time, I get where the concern comes from.  He had pretty major foot/ankle issues, so who's to say that these don't become more of an issue over time?
Remember when people thought Crosby was done because of concussion issues? 3/4 of a bad season does not change my opinion on elite talent, especially when the bad season still had him fighting for the league lead before personal and family issues shut Karlsson down for the season. Some  players are worth fighting for. Karlsson is one of them for me. I hate that Melnyk has even made this an issue. People are making and seeing an issue that isn’t there with Karlsson in my opinion. People need to relax. Unfortunately, I think it is too late because the damage has already been done by Melnyk and media. The result of this Karlsson situation will be one of the worst trades in history and that is my opinion. Imagine if the Penguins gave up on Crosby when his injury hampered his play and “threatened” his career. Patient GM’s and organizations win Cups. People laughed at Lombardi in LA. Cup win. People questioned Crosby. Two more Cups won. Look at Winnipeg now. Let’s not be impatient with Karlsson and team that has had success only 10 months ago.

Lagoon


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Ev wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:Ended up going down a YouTube hole the other day, watching a pile of highlights from last year's playoff run.  Yes, I'd like to keep Karlsson please.  He was so good...if he can be close to that good, again, in the playoffs for us.....

The issue is if he’s not, that’s a ton of cap space to eat for one player. When karlsson is bad, he’s really bad (defensively).
Do you not realize that until now, all you’ve ever done is defend Karlsson’s defensive play in Ottawa? Or do you forget what you say because all you ever do is try to contradict others?



Last edited by Lagoon on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

DefenceWinsChampionships


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Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:Ended up going down a YouTube hole the other day, watching a pile of highlights from last year's playoff run.  Yes, I'd like to keep Karlsson please.  He was so good...if he can be close to that good, again, in the playoffs 
People have very short memories and it is sad because Karlsson is so good and was injured this season. I always laugh when people say they want to trade the Karlsson from this season. They forget that when they do that, they are trading the Karlsson from all 5 seasons prior too. Ignorance is bliss.

At the same time, I get where the concern comes from.  He had pretty major foot/ankle issues, so who's to say that these don't become more of an issue over time?
Remember when people thought Crosby was done because of concussion issues? 3/4 of a bad season does now change my opinion on elite talent, especially when the bad season still had him fighting for the league lead before personal and family issues shut Karlsson down for the season. Some  players are worth fighting for. Karlsson is one of them for me. I hate that Melnyk has even made this an issue. People are making and seeing an issue that isn’t there with Karlsson in my opinion. People need to relax. Unfortunately, I think it is too late because the damage has already been done by Melnyk and media. The result of this Karlsson situation will be one of the worst trades in history and that is my opinion. Imagine if the Penguins gave up on Crosby when his injury hampered his play and “threatened” his career.

I agree with all of the conversations surrounding Karlsson's health. Even with him playing injured he still ended up 2nd in defence scoring. That's absurd. I do think Karlsson's injury history is an aspect of deciding whether or not to re-sign him BUT I don't think it's the driver. The driver is whether or not the team wants to pay this guy $10M+ a season for the next 8 years knowing full well that the team will not compete for a cup within the next 3-4 years. The team has so many holes. Goaltending is brutal, defence is brutal, and depth scoring is non-existent. Trading Karlsson may address some of these concerns but there are no guarantees with draft picks or with prospects. If the organization is going to build around him then re-sign him, if they are going a different direction then trade him.

Realistically the plan to me would be to keep Karlsson, draft Zadina or Svech, trade into the top 10 and draft a d-man (I've repeatedly said Ceci, Hoffman + for Klefbom and EDM 1st). Infuse the lineup with some kids, roll the dice on Jaros in the top-four (can he be any worse than Ceci?), and before you know it we'll be competitive again. The team has to commit to a plan. Signing these depth guys and patching holes has not worked in the past. Time to own up to the roster errors and move forward.

Lagoon

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slowclap I think the team gets a lot of confidence from a goalie and a lot of the holes you see were magnified by being down 1-0 before the puck was dropped. Anderson has proven he can be better and has down years a lot. They usually get followed by good years. I’ve said it before and I will say it again, take this blip and be happy we can inject a Top 5 draft pick immediately into our lineup. We have the talent and pieces. Yes, we made some dumb signings and let better players walk in the last offseason, we have the pieces and tools to fix it quickly this offseason in my opinion. Trading Karlsson isn’t part of my plan as internet owner and gm.

Ev

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DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:Ended up going down a YouTube hole the other day, watching a pile of highlights from last year's playoff run.  Yes, I'd like to keep Karlsson please.  He was so good...if he can be close to that good, again, in the playoffs 
People have very short memories and it is sad because Karlsson is so good and was injured this season. I always laugh when people say they want to trade the Karlsson from this season. They forget that when they do that, they are trading the Karlsson from all 5 seasons prior too. Ignorance is bliss.

At the same time, I get where the concern comes from.  He had pretty major foot/ankle issues, so who's to say that these don't become more of an issue over time?
Remember when people thought Crosby was done because of concussion issues? 3/4 of a bad season does now change my opinion on elite talent, especially when the bad season still had him fighting for the league lead before personal and family issues shut Karlsson down for the season. Some  players are worth fighting for. Karlsson is one of them for me. I hate that Melnyk has even made this an issue. People are making and seeing an issue that isn’t there with Karlsson in my opinion. People need to relax. Unfortunately, I think it is too late because the damage has already been done by Melnyk and media. The result of this Karlsson situation will be one of the worst trades in history and that is my opinion. Imagine if the Penguins gave up on Crosby when his injury hampered his play and “threatened” his career.

I agree with all of the conversations surrounding Karlsson's health. Even with him playing injured he still ended up 2nd in defence scoring. That's absurd. I do think Karlsson's injury history is an aspect of deciding whether or not to re-sign him BUT I don't think it's the driver. The driver is whether or not the team wants to pay this guy $10M+ a season for the next 8 years knowing full well that the team will not compete for a cup within the next 3-4 years. The team has so many holes. Goaltending is brutal, defence is brutal, and depth scoring is non-existent. Trading Karlsson may address some of these concerns but there are no guarantees with draft picks or with prospects. If the organization is going to build around him then re-sign him, if they are going a different direction then trade him.

Realistically the plan to me would be to keep Karlsson, draft Zadina or Svech, trade into the top 10 and draft a d-man (I've repeatedly said Ceci, Hoffman + for Klefbom and EDM 1st). Infuse the lineup with some kids, roll the dice on Jaros in the top-four (can he be any worse than Ceci?), and before you know it we'll be competitive again. The team has to commit to a plan. Signing these depth guys and patching holes has not worked in the past. Time to own up to the roster errors and move forward.

Edmonton wouldn't make that trade. Klefbom > Ceci and 1st > Hoffman. Makes no sense for them.

wprager

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Ev wrote:
wprager wrote:He can be called up on an emergency basis and after his OHL season is done.
thats not what you meant, but ok

I believe I listed a bunch of players' names. One of them can only stick with the team, or be brought up on an emergency basis, or be brought up at the end of the year.

While I clearly did not take into consideration the fact that Formenton is not AHL-eligible, you have clearly decided to put all your effort into proving that I was wrong instead of looking at the *root* of what my post was about, which is that the bottom six and call-ups this year will be very different than last year.


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DefenceWinsChampionships


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Lagoon wrote:slowclap I think the team gets a lot of confidence from a goalie and a lot of the holes you see were magnified by being down 1-0 before the puck was dropped. Anderson has proven he can be better and has down years a lot. They usually get followed by good years. I’ve said it before and I will say it again, take this blip and be happy we can inject a Top 5 draft pick immediately into our lineup. We have the talent and pieces. Yes, we made some dumb signings and let better players walk in the last offseason, we have the pieces and tools to fix it quickly this offseason in my opinion. Trading Karlsson isn’t part of my plan as internet owner and gm.

I don't think this year was a blip. Our secondary scoring was atrocious, defensive scoring (aside from Karlsson) was non-existent, and our goalies stole a combined zero games. I don't think Anderson will rebound from this. Why Dorion raced to re-sign him at the start of the season was beyond me but here we are.

Ev also made a very good point. Karlsson isn't good defensively. He led the league in blocked shots last season and lost an ankle because of it. He won't be doing that again. He's a threat on the ice offensively and a risk defensively. That is certainly something that needs to be considered when re-signing him.

I am not for or against trading Karlsson. I could get behind either decision. What scares me is management's competency and ability to acquire good assets if they trade him, Or if they keep him, their ability to surround him with talent. I don't have confidence in either scenario which is what concerns me the most right now.

wprager

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Edmonton picked Yakupov 1st overall. And you are sure their 1RP is better than Hoffman?


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Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

Lagoon

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Ev wrote:
DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:Ended up going down a YouTube hole the other day, watching a pile of highlights from last year's playoff run.  Yes, I'd like to keep Karlsson please.  He was so good...if he can be close to that good, again, in the playoffs 
People have very short memories and it is sad because Karlsson is so good and was injured this season. I always laugh when people say they want to trade the Karlsson from this season. They forget that when they do that, they are trading the Karlsson from all 5 seasons prior too. Ignorance is bliss.

At the same time, I get where the concern comes from.  He had pretty major foot/ankle issues, so who's to say that these don't become more of an issue over time?
Remember when people thought Crosby was done because of concussion issues? 3/4 of a bad season does now change my opinion on elite talent, especially when the bad season still had him fighting for the league lead before personal and family issues shut Karlsson down for the season. Some  players are worth fighting for. Karlsson is one of them for me. I hate that Melnyk has even made this an issue. People are making and seeing an issue that isn’t there with Karlsson in my opinion. People need to relax. Unfortunately, I think it is too late because the damage has already been done by Melnyk and media. The result of this Karlsson situation will be one of the worst trades in history and that is my opinion. Imagine if the Penguins gave up on Crosby when his injury hampered his play and “threatened” his career.

I agree with all of the conversations surrounding Karlsson's health. Even with him playing injured he still ended up 2nd in defence scoring. That's absurd. I do think Karlsson's injury history is an aspect of deciding whether or not to re-sign him BUT I don't think it's the driver. The driver is whether or not the team wants to pay this guy $10M+ a season for the next 8 years knowing full well that the team will not compete for a cup within the next 3-4 years. The team has so many holes. Goaltending is brutal, defence is brutal, and depth scoring is non-existent. Trading Karlsson may address some of these concerns but there are no guarantees with draft picks or with prospects. If the organization is going to build around him then re-sign him, if they are going a different direction then trade him.

Realistically the plan to me would be to keep Karlsson, draft Zadina or Svech, trade into the top 10 and draft a d-man (I've repeatedly said Ceci, Hoffman + for Klefbom and EDM 1st). Infuse the lineup with some kids, roll the dice on Jaros in the top-four (can he be any worse than Ceci?), and before you know it we'll be competitive again. The team has to commit to a plan. Signing these depth guys and patching holes has not worked in the past. Time to own up to the roster errors and move forward.

Edmonton wouldn't make that trade. Klefbom > Ceci and 1st > Hoffman. Makes no sense for them.
You don’t know this and I don’t know why you pretend to. Did Chiarelli consult you before trading Hall for Larsson?



Last edited by Lagoon on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

tim1_2

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I'm WAYYYYYY more concerned about the defence than I am about Anderson. I think Matrix will rebound...but if the defence doesn't improve AND we lose Karlsson....yikes. We have quite the assortment of bottom pairing d-men, and maybe one top 4 guy (Chabot), depending on what you think of Ceci.

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wprager wrote:Edmonton picked Yakupov 1st overall.  And you are sure their 1RP is better than Hoffman?

The reality is you can't improve a team by putting the same product on the ice. Ex: re-signing Karlsson is all fine and well as long as you improve what's around him. If you re-sign him and continue to pair him with Boro or continue to deploy Ceci as your shutdown d-man, you will not win games. Something has to change in order for this team to win. Changes won't happen in nets, the bottom d-pairing only plays 12-15 mins a game, and Ottawa's depth scoring may take time to improve. I wouldn't waste a penny bringing anyone in with all the guys coming up through the system.

I think the organization needs to take some risks and sell some players while their value is high. We missed out on Cowen, Lazar, Wiercioch, etc. We sold these guys for nothing. Hoffman to me is expendable. As many have stated here, he's never scored more than 30 goals. He's on a cap friendly contract for now. I'm not sure why everyone is so high on him. Dzingel had more goals than him and wasn't playing PP1. Brassard had 4 fewer goals than Hoffman this season in 58 games, and Duchene outscored him in 14 less games. People have to stop classifying Hoffman as a god send. I think he's great and losing him would be a loss to Ottawa's scoring for sure, but he's expendable to me if it means getting Karlsson a good D partner or adding a top 10 pick.

Tough decisions need to be made. I'd have preferred keeping Brass over Hoffman to be honest. Parlay Smith, Ceci, and Hoffman into futures and/or a partner for Karlsson. If it means adding Pitt's 1st rd pick (Ceci, Hoffman, Pitt 1st for Klefbom and Edm 1st) you 100% do it. Take Bouchard, Boqvist, Hughes or whoever you can. Sometimes you need to add by taking a step backwards. Einstein said doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is insanity. The franchise needs to take some risks if they're going to improve they have to start somewhere.

Ev

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wprager wrote:Edmonton picked Yakupov 1st overall.  And you are sure their 1RP is better than Hoffman?

It would not be better than Hoffman for at least two years, but it's a cheap asset with the potential to be better than Hoffman with many more years of control. As a Sens fan I would not trade out pick for a player like Hoffman. Has to be way better than that for me to move it. I wouldn't spend a Top 10 pick on Mike Hoffman when I can get a guy like Vanek every year for a 4th.

DefenceWinsChampionships


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Lagoon wrote:
Ev wrote:
DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:Ended up going down a YouTube hole the other day, watching a pile of highlights from last year's playoff run.  Yes, I'd like to keep Karlsson please.  He was so good...if he can be close to that good, again, in the playoffs 
People have very short memories and it is sad because Karlsson is so good and was injured this season. I always laugh when people say they want to trade the Karlsson from this season. They forget that when they do that, they are trading the Karlsson from all 5 seasons prior too. Ignorance is bliss.

At the same time, I get where the concern comes from.  He had pretty major foot/ankle issues, so who's to say that these don't become more of an issue over time?
Remember when people thought Crosby was done because of concussion issues? 3/4 of a bad season does now change my opinion on elite talent, especially when the bad season still had him fighting for the league lead before personal and family issues shut Karlsson down for the season. Some  players are worth fighting for. Karlsson is one of them for me. I hate that Melnyk has even made this an issue. People are making and seeing an issue that isn’t there with Karlsson in my opinion. People need to relax. Unfortunately, I think it is too late because the damage has already been done by Melnyk and media. The result of this Karlsson situation will be one of the worst trades in history and that is my opinion. Imagine if the Penguins gave up on Crosby when his injury hampered his play and “threatened” his career.

I agree with all of the conversations surrounding Karlsson's health. Even with him playing injured he still ended up 2nd in defence scoring. That's absurd. I do think Karlsson's injury history is an aspect of deciding whether or not to re-sign him BUT I don't think it's the driver. The driver is whether or not the team wants to pay this guy $10M+ a season for the next 8 years knowing full well that the team will not compete for a cup within the next 3-4 years. The team has so many holes. Goaltending is brutal, defence is brutal, and depth scoring is non-existent. Trading Karlsson may address some of these concerns but there are no guarantees with draft picks or with prospects. If the organization is going to build around him then re-sign him, if they are going a different direction then trade him.

Realistically the plan to me would be to keep Karlsson, draft Zadina or Svech, trade into the top 10 and draft a d-man (I've repeatedly said Ceci, Hoffman + for Klefbom and EDM 1st). Infuse the lineup with some kids, roll the dice on Jaros in the top-four (can he be any worse than Ceci?), and before you know it we'll be competitive again. The team has to commit to a plan. Signing these depth guys and patching holes has not worked in the past. Time to own up to the roster errors and move forward.

Edmonton wouldn't make that trade. Klefbom > Ceci and 1st > Hoffman. Makes no sense for them.
You don’t know this.

You may be right, but Chiarelli's job is on the line. EDM needs to make the playoffs next year. 1st rd pick > Hoffman down the road but right now you're getting a 20+ goal scorer and someone to play with McDavid for the 'prospect' of someone maybe being good in a few years.

Klefbom is better than Ceci, but EDM needs a RHD and someone who will be cheaper.

Ev

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Lagoon wrote:
Ev wrote:
DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:
Lagoon wrote:
tim1_2 wrote:Ended up going down a YouTube hole the other day, watching a pile of highlights from last year's playoff run.  Yes, I'd like to keep Karlsson please.  He was so good...if he can be close to that good, again, in the playoffs 
People have very short memories and it is sad because Karlsson is so good and was injured this season. I always laugh when people say they want to trade the Karlsson from this season. They forget that when they do that, they are trading the Karlsson from all 5 seasons prior too. Ignorance is bliss.

At the same time, I get where the concern comes from.  He had pretty major foot/ankle issues, so who's to say that these don't become more of an issue over time?
Remember when people thought Crosby was done because of concussion issues? 3/4 of a bad season does now change my opinion on elite talent, especially when the bad season still had him fighting for the league lead before personal and family issues shut Karlsson down for the season. Some  players are worth fighting for. Karlsson is one of them for me. I hate that Melnyk has even made this an issue. People are making and seeing an issue that isn’t there with Karlsson in my opinion. People need to relax. Unfortunately, I think it is too late because the damage has already been done by Melnyk and media. The result of this Karlsson situation will be one of the worst trades in history and that is my opinion. Imagine if the Penguins gave up on Crosby when his injury hampered his play and “threatened” his career.

I agree with all of the conversations surrounding Karlsson's health. Even with him playing injured he still ended up 2nd in defence scoring. That's absurd. I do think Karlsson's injury history is an aspect of deciding whether or not to re-sign him BUT I don't think it's the driver. The driver is whether or not the team wants to pay this guy $10M+ a season for the next 8 years knowing full well that the team will not compete for a cup within the next 3-4 years. The team has so many holes. Goaltending is brutal, defence is brutal, and depth scoring is non-existent. Trading Karlsson may address some of these concerns but there are no guarantees with draft picks or with prospects. If the organization is going to build around him then re-sign him, if they are going a different direction then trade him.

Realistically the plan to me would be to keep Karlsson, draft Zadina or Svech, trade into the top 10 and draft a d-man (I've repeatedly said Ceci, Hoffman + for Klefbom and EDM 1st). Infuse the lineup with some kids, roll the dice on Jaros in the top-four (can he be any worse than Ceci?), and before you know it we'll be competitive again. The team has to commit to a plan. Signing these depth guys and patching holes has not worked in the past. Time to own up to the roster errors and move forward.

Edmonton wouldn't make that trade. Klefbom > Ceci and 1st > Hoffman. Makes no sense for them.
You don’t know this and I don’t know why you pretend to. Did Chiarelli consult you before trading Hall for Larsson?

What an original comment. Get new material, buttercup.

DefenceWinsChampionships


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Ev wrote:
wprager wrote:Edmonton picked Yakupov 1st overall.  And you are sure their 1RP is better than Hoffman?

It would not be better than Hoffman for at least two years, but it's a cheap asset with the potential to be better than Hoffman with many more years of control. As a Sens fan I would not trade out pick for a player like Hoffman. Has to be way better than that for me to move it. I wouldn't spend a Top 10 pick on Mike Hoffman when I can get a guy like Vanek every year for a 4th.

Your opinion. And I certainly value it. But these are two trigger happy GMs that need to appease their respective fan bases. Not sure signing Tomas Vanek invokes any confidence in Oilers fans. But trading a pick (EDM has an awful track record for picks in recent history) for someone that can produce with McDavid sends a much stronger message of hope.

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Chiarelli mentioned that the Oilers are a few pieces away from making the playoffs. A first rd pick doesn't help them right now, and they're in a win-now mentality

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Also remember that Chiarelli needs top-six help and over the last two years traded Yakupov, Hall, and Eberle for practically nothing.

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