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General Hockey Talk - Injuries, signings, factoids + other news from around the league

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Hoags


All-Star
All-Star
I'm not sure if Doughty's issue is with the amount or the term.

He doesn't want to give up UFA years, LA wants to lock him up long term on a cap hit which won't be much in a few years time. $6.8M AAV cap hit will be (relative) peanuts in a few years' time the way things are going.

If they settle it will be on a short term contract as I'm sure DD could get a lot more if he wins the Norris in the next few years (which is certainly possible if not likely the way he is going).

Ev


Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Yeah a 40-point d-man. That's aaaaaallll he is. Not the best young d-man in the world who can pot 60+ points while playing great hockey in his own zone and leading the team both on and off the ice. Franchise d-man. Could be a generational type d-man.

I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. If you are merely looking at his stats to judge him, then you're not judging him correctly and you've never seen him play. I'd probably trade KARLSSON + 1st + Michalek to get him. He's that much of a beast.

To say "oh he's only had 1 good year" is foolish. He's 21 years old.

If you honestly think Rundblad has achieved more than Doughty then I think you really need to wake up and smell the coffee. SEL is not the NHL, please. Doughty already has World Junior gold, OLYMPIC gold, Norris nominee, drafted 2nd overall and played right away. The Franchise.

PTFlea


Co-Founder
Co-Founder
Hoags wrote:I'm not sure if Doughty's issue is with the amount or the term.

He doesn't want to give up UFA years, LA wants to lock him up long term on a cap hit which won't be much in a few years time. $6.8M AAV cap hit will be (relative) peanuts in a few years' time the way things are going.

If they settle it will be on a short term contract as I'm sure DD could get a lot more if he wins the Norris in the next few years (which is certainly possible if not likely the way he is going).

I think that's what it is. Sounds like Lombardi doesn't want to do a similar contract to Stamkos - and I agree, in 5 years it becomes an absolute free for all and your position is weakened considerably by 29 other teams waving 7.5+ on a long term deal.

If Doughty is taking a hard line at 5 years, 7 per year, then it's not worth it to LA to sign it right now - but how the hell can they avoid it. This is some of the issue with the 2nd contract for anyone, but when it comes to the best of the best, it gets even harder.

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star
No, my logic is I wouldn't give up a guy who has not had a chance to prove himself in the NHL, and has a lot of potential, plus is young, and affordable, and homegrown (he's already a member of th team, so no giving up assets to get).

So it makes 0 sense to do this trade. Because this team is supposed to be rebuilding, and you don't go throwing away a bunch of players for ONE player. Yes he is good, but how does that ONE player help out a TEAM? If you made that team, this team would be worse in the short term. MAYBE in the long run better, but you have lost out on picks and have no depth anymore.

Plus Doughty on this team destroys Karlsson's development - makes him obsolete.

NEELY


Mod
Mod
Dash wrote:No, my logic is I wouldn't give up a guy who has not had a chance to prove himself in the NHL, and has a lot of potential, plus is young, and affordable, and homegrown (he's already a member of th team, so no giving up assets to get).

So it makes 0 sense to do this trade. Because this team is supposed to be rebuilding, and you don't go throwing away a bunch of players for ONE player. Yes he is good, but how does that ONE player help out a TEAM? If you made that team, this team would be worse in the short term. MAYBE in the long run better, but you have lost out on picks and have no depth anymore.

Plus Doughty on this team destroys Karlsson's development - makes him obsolete.

Ummm... what? That literally makes no sense.

LeCaptain

LeCaptain
All-Star
All-Star
Big Ev wrote:Yeah a 40-point d-man. That's aaaaaallll he is. Not the best young d-man in the world who can pot 60+ points while playing great hockey in his own zone and leading the team both on and off the ice. Franchise d-man. Could be a generational type d-man.

I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. If you are merely looking at his stats to judge him, then you're not judging him correctly and you've never seen him play. I'd probably trade KARLSSON + 1st + Michalek to get him. He's that much of a beast.

To say "oh he's only had 1 good year" is foolish. He's 21 years old.

If you honestly think Rundblad has achieved more than Doughty then I think you really need to wake up and smell the coffee. SEL is not the NHL, please. Doughty already has World Junior gold, OLYMPIC gold, Norris nominee, drafted 2nd overall and played right away. The Franchise.

Yeah I'd have to agree, the guy at 20 was the best defenseman in the Olympics, defensively, offensively, you name it... hockey sense off the charts, incredible shot, as close to generational as you can get
There was one game in the playoffs this year where he was basically doing whatever he wanted it was ridiculous. And Without Kopitar... I'm starting to question his commitment though. Was fat last year, now this...
I wouldn't trade Karlsson + 1st just yet, it could mean Doughty versus Ryan Murray + Karlsson, which is potentially a top defensive pairing for 10+ years VS 1 superstar. Something like Keith + Seabrook vs Lidstrom.

LeCaptain

LeCaptain
All-Star
All-Star
Completely off topic but have you guys seen that McKinnon kid? He's probably gonna get 100+ pts in the Q as a 16 year old Vertigo

NEELY


Mod
Mod
No idea what LA is thinking here though, they truck gold with Doughty and they are putting the next 20 years of the franchise at risk for what could amount to pennies. Lambardi should go before Doughty.

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
SpezDispenser wrote:1.The SEL's Norris and the NHL's Norris mean two completely different things. Rundblad has potential, but Doughty's got potential to go with actually doing it in the NHL

2.Everyone else around Doughty is getting paid, including Tavares who hasn't even approached the feats that Doughty has. He got 5.5 X 6, why wouldn't Doughty be worth more? And why wouldn't he hold out to get it?

LA's always been frugal and now look at the situation they're in. They have zero choice but to head back to the table and hammer it out. As I said before, if he comes back with a 7 million X 10 years, the Kings should thank their lucky stars and sign him immediately.

They both have potential. They've demonstrated that potential at two different levels, agreed.

Rundblad has had a meteoric rise, while Doughty's recent season was quite the opposite. I'm sorry, but at this point in time Doughty has a small question mark. Are you telling me there has never been a player who seemed to dominate for one year and then settle down into something not quite approaching superstardom? This is not a guy with 8 years in the league and a hiccup. And giving up RUndblad + Michalek + 1st at this point in time -- *AND* especially at his reported asking salary -- is over the top.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
Big Ev wrote:Yeah a 40-point d-man. That's aaaaaallll he is. Not the best young d-man in the world who can pot 60+ points while playing great hockey in his own zone and leading the team both on and off the ice. Franchise d-man. Could be a generational type d-man.

I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. If you are merely looking at his stats to judge him, then you're not judging him correctly and you've never seen him play. I'd probably trade KARLSSON + 1st + Michalek to get him. He's that much of a beast.

To say "oh he's only had 1 good year" is foolish. He's 21 years old.

If you honestly think Rundblad has achieved more than Doughty then I think you really need to wake up and smell the coffee. SEL is not the NHL, please. Doughty already has World Junior gold, OLYMPIC gold, Norris nominee, drafted 2nd overall and played right away. The Franchise.

*EXACTLY* He's had 3 years in the league. He has not proven (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that he deserves the same coin as the league's *BEST* defenseman. And for a 10-year term on top of that. He showed up out of shape and slipped in his development last year -- a contract year. Who's to say what happens if you guarantee him $70M?

Too much and too soon. And no way I'd give that kind of return to land a player holding out.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator
Look, I'm taking heat here mentioning that Doughty's production dipped last year, and that in two of his three years his production was not worth $7.5M.

Yes, I'm looking at stats. Offensive stats are what get you the big coin. A-Train got $5.5M after *YEARS* of being one of the more punishing hitters and the most prolific shot-blockers in the league.

So Doughty's *OFFENSIVE* production is *CRUCIAL* in determining whether he gets $7M or not.

And while I'm taking heat for bringing logic into this discussion NEELY and BigEv (and others?) are suggesting Rundblad or Karlsson, plus Michalek *PLUS* a potential lottery pick?

Oh, and let's not forget that he is not re-signed and asking $7M. Probably more to come to Ottawa.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star
NEELY wrote:
Dash wrote:No, my logic is I wouldn't give up a guy who has not had a chance to prove himself in the NHL, and has a lot of potential, plus is young, and affordable, and homegrown (he's already a member of th team, so no giving up assets to get).

So it makes 0 sense to do this trade. Because this team is supposed to be rebuilding, and you don't go throwing away a bunch of players for ONE player. Yes he is good, but how does that ONE player help out a TEAM? If you made that team, this team would be worse in the short term. MAYBE in the long run better, but you have lost out on picks and have no depth anymore.

Plus Doughty on this team destroys Karlsson's development - makes him obsolete.

Ummm... what? That literally makes no sense.

No it makes sense, because you have a right handed defenceman that plays a similar game to Karlsson, and logs 30+ minutes in the same spot. You won't play the two together, except maybe on the powerplay.

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star
This trade proposal would be the equivalent of the Islanders trading (an unsigned) John Tavares, a 1st and Calvin DeHaan for Stamkos.

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Potential schmotential... I do have a problem with Doughty being the 4th highest paid defenseman in the league (cap wise) after only three years on the circuit. No doubt he's gonna be great, but it just feels wrong for him to be offered (and turn down) that kind of money. If the $61M for 9 years is accurate.

It seems these days that the kids/agents want to knock it out of the park on the 2nd contract.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-elliott-kings-ducks-20110918,0,6215661.column

This isn't good for either side.

Ev

Ev
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Dash wrote:
NEELY wrote:
Dash wrote:No, my logic is I wouldn't give up a guy who has not had a chance to prove himself in the NHL, and has a lot of potential, plus is young, and affordable, and homegrown (he's already a member of th team, so no giving up assets to get).

So it makes 0 sense to do this trade. Because this team is supposed to be rebuilding, and you don't go throwing away a bunch of players for ONE player. Yes he is good, but how does that ONE player help out a TEAM? If you made that team, this team would be worse in the short term. MAYBE in the long run better, but you have lost out on picks and have no depth anymore.

Plus Doughty on this team destroys Karlsson's development - makes him obsolete.

Ummm... what? That literally makes no sense.

No it makes sense, because you have a right handed defenceman that plays a similar game to Karlsson, and logs 30+ minutes in the same spot. You won't play the two together, except maybe on the powerplay.

The point is, we would have Doughty. Was Crosby's development stunted when Malkin arrived?

Ev

Ev
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
spader wrote:
Big Ev wrote:Damn HFBoards is one tough cookie. I keep making accounts from different IP addresses, but they catch me every time!

How? Do you keep referring to "facts"? Sarcasm

No I keep saying how awful HF writers and rankings are. And how awful Corey Pronman from Hockey Prospectus is.

sandysensfan


Veteran
Veteran
La Femme wrote:Completely off topic but have you guys seen that McKinnon kid? He's probably gonna get 100+ pts in the Q as a 16 year old Vertigo

That is the guy I want the Sens to pickup in the draft -- but that won't be until 2013.

He will most likely go first overall (except for some unforeseen happenings).

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star
Big Ev wrote:
Dash wrote:
NEELY wrote:
Dash wrote:No, my logic is I wouldn't give up a guy who has not had a chance to prove himself in the NHL, and has a lot of potential, plus is young, and affordable, and homegrown (he's already a member of th team, so no giving up assets to get).

So it makes 0 sense to do this trade. Because this team is supposed to be rebuilding, and you don't go throwing away a bunch of players for ONE player. Yes he is good, but how does that ONE player help out a TEAM? If you made that team, this team would be worse in the short term. MAYBE in the long run better, but you have lost out on picks and have no depth anymore.

Plus Doughty on this team destroys Karlsson's development - makes him obsolete.

Ummm... what? That literally makes no sense.

No it makes sense, because you have a right handed defenceman that plays a similar game to Karlsson, and logs 30+ minutes in the same spot. You won't play the two together, except maybe on the powerplay.

The point is, we would have Doughty. Was Crosby's development stunted when Malkin arrived?

No, my point is, it makes no sense from an organization standpoint. Doughty does not make the team better. To acquire him would cost more than he is worth to the team. At this point there's no telling what we have could be, and the whole point of a rebuild is to see what your own players can do.

Doughty is a lateral move at best. Giving up too much assets, a lottery pick included, to get a guy that we already have two of (Rundblad and Karlsson). Two right handed, skilled defenceman. Plus Doughty's demands are extravagant.

How is it that it would be acceptable if Ottawa made this deal, but Colorado trading a 1st + 2nd for Varlamov is bad?

If you think that move is bad, you have to think this move would be. Both are young, rebuilding teams.

It would be a bad move that would set the team back in its progress.

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