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GM Hockey » Breaking Rumours!! » Member's Story breakers! » Pat Burns on Jason Spezza

Pat Burns on Jason Spezza

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31Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:57 am

Riprock


All-Star
All-Star
The joys of being in the media hotbed known as Canada. Could be worse, he could be playing for the Leafs, with Montreal a close 2nd.

32Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:09 am

Guest


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504Heater wrote:
Neely4Life wrote:

Well you would have to be pretty blind not to see the tallent, but there are a lot of guys that had tallent and did nothing and were basically career losers.

Adam Oates, Pierre Turgeron, Pat Lafontain, Eric Lindros, right now thats where Spezza falls.

That's where the Sens organization falls IMO. Spezza's been dynamite from day one for us. A few stupid plays, but no more or less than any other young superstar out there.

Ok, how hard is it to truely see that Heatley makes Spezza better, same with Alfi, not the other way around.

If this team fails to make the playoffs, you can garentee you will see someone like Brian Little and a 1st here for Spezza, garenteed.

Spezza has to make others better and if the people that always defend Spezza fail to see that, there is no point in talking about it. The only defense people have of Spezza is "he puts up points"

33Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:10 am

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504Heater wrote:
mattshock wrote:A decent rant Heater, but he plays for Ottawa. Every guy in the room is going to be under the scrutiny of the media once in a while. Fisher had it last week, Spezza is this week's flavour.

Soon it will be Vermette's turn, and then full circle back to Gerber.

It's Vermette's turn now. Have a good game tonight (1 goal, 2 assists) or get used to the 3rd line. It ain't working. Unless of course we move Winchester up to be with Spezza and Heatley and move Vermette with Alfie and Fisher.

As a matter of fact, why is it that that isn't the case? Vermette is smooth and silky, we need someone who can go into the corners and retrieve the puck for Heater and Spez. That guy is much more Winchester than it is Vermette.

By contrast, the Fisher line is all about the boardwork, they could use some high end skill to finish off plays - because it's Fisher and Alfie retrieving the puck.

Watch for it...it's coming. Wink

For 7 million dollars a year, he should be answering those questions with a smile everyday. Thats why he is paid that kind of cash.

34Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:12 am

SensGirl11

SensGirl11
Mod
Mod
mattshock wrote:
Neely4Life wrote:
shabbs wrote:
Neely4Life wrote:Haha, if we are basing Spezza's progress on not giggling in an interview haha, we r in trouble.
HA HA!

As long as he keeps putting up points each season... I'm fine.

Daaah man, there is so much more than points to winning hockey. Frustrates me people do get that or choose to ignore it. He isnt even putting up the numbers this year, he has 9 points, and 4 of those were in 1 game.

He has 13 points Wink

He's playing with Heatley, and first unit powerplay.

We're playing now to win games 2-1 or 3-2. His points will come, I'm confident.

Hopefully he has a monster game tonight.

I would bet on it! 8)

35Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:15 am

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Let's hope our top 2 lines both have monster nights. It would be nice to get them both producing.

36Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:17 am

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
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Neely4Life wrote:
Ok, how hard is it to truely see that Heatley makes Spezza better, same with Alfi, not the other way around.

If this team fails to make the playoffs, you can garentee you will see someone like Brian Little and a 1st here for Spezza, garenteed.

Spezza has to make others better and if the people that always defend Spezza fail to see that, there is no point in talking about it. The only defense people have of Spezza is "he puts up points"

I totally disagree. Obviously with superstar, elite talents like Alfie and Heatley, they're gonna improve Spezza's numbers, but both Heatley and Alfredsson's number improved dramatically when they were put on a line with Spezza. He's one of the deftest passers in the league - and that's gonna help a guy like Heatley who's a pure-blood sniper. And it's definitely gonna be a career changer for a guy like Alfie, who's a real hard worker, but never got to play with an elite passer.

Career changer. Heatley would still be floundering in Atlanta with Kozlov as his center. He'd still score 40+ goals per year, but he wouldn't have the same panache as he does here being a 50/50 man two years in a row.

People said the same about Thornton and still do, when your center possesses the puck as much as these guys do, they're gonna turn it over, but you can guarantee that when you're put on a line with them, you'll get more chances than you ever did in your life.

37Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:22 am

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Guest
So, we are winning gams 2-1, 3-2... we cant win those games without Spezza? Not a lot of doubt we could.

All he has done is put up points for the first bit of his career...

Adam Oates 1420 career points
Pierre Turgeon 1327 career points
Marcel Dionne 1771 career points
Eric Lindros 865 career points
Vincent Damphousse 1205 career points
Pat Lafontaine 1013 career points

All had good careers and for the most part PPG players, are they considered the elite or talked about as the best, not even close. Thats where Spezza is right now. It shows how meaningless numbers can be.

38Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:26 am

Guest


Guest
504Heater wrote:
Neely4Life wrote:
Ok, how hard is it to truely see that Heatley makes Spezza better, same with Alfi, not the other way around.

If this team fails to make the playoffs, you can garentee you will see someone like Brian Little and a 1st here for Spezza, garenteed.

Spezza has to make others better and if the people that always defend Spezza fail to see that, there is no point in talking about it. The only defense people have of Spezza is "he puts up points"

I totally disagree. Obviously with superstar, elite talents like Alfie and Heatley, they're gonna improve Spezza's numbers, but both Heatley and Alfredsson's number improved dramatically when they were put on a line with Spezza. He's one of the deftest passers in the league - and that's gonna help a guy like Heatley who's a pure-blood sniper. And it's definitely gonna be a career changer for a guy like Alfie, who's a real hard worker, but never got to play with an elite passer.

Career changer. Heatley would still be floundering in Atlanta with Kozlov as his center. He'd still score 40+ goals per year, but he wouldn't have the same panache as he does here being a 50/50 man two years in a row.

People said the same about Thornton and still do, when your center possesses the puck as much as these guys do, they're gonna turn it over, but you can guarantee that when you're put on a line with them, you'll get more chances than you ever did in your life.

Not once did i mention anything about turn overs. The fact of the matter is the people who trash Spezza for the sake of trashing him use that as the only excuse to trash him. His turns overs arnt a big deal when they arnt at our blue line.

Tell me when Spezza has shown he can produce without either Heatley or Alfi. I know the other two have produced without Spezza, either before he got there or on another team. There is a huge reason Spezza was 4th line at the WC's and Heatley was on the 1st. There is a reason Heatley has the A, and Spezza doesnt.

All I am asking for is a little proof of Spezza that Spezza plays well with others, or the other cant produce without him. Its simple.

39Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:57 pm

mattshock

mattshock
Veteran
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Why do we care that he produces well with others?!? So every guy in the dugout can't pitch the ball, it doesn't matter.

No one else on this team can create offense like Spezza can. He's our most dangerous playmaker. Do you think Heatley would be close to his 50 every year if he had Fisher, Vermette, Bass, McAmmond, Donovan, or Kelly centering him!?

Spezza and Heatley are still our top offensive threat, and as a result, they get paired against the shutdown pairings, or line matched against the other teams top offensive lines. They play the hard minutes, and rightfully so, and still manage to produce all the while creating better chances for the subsequent lines. (Spezza is usually around +20 too, btw).

I haven't seen a single blind backpass this season, and those used to drive me CRAZY. He's becoming a more defensive minded player on a more defensively minded team. He's buying in. He's scored roughly 90 points in the last three seasons, and he's still only 25.

He's no slouch. He's a playmaker. Management puts him with players who can score goals, and he gets them the puck. "Making the other players around him better" is something I've heard a lot. If he's guilty of anything, it's trying to do too much by himself when paired with lesser talented linemates. That is something that can be easily changed.

40Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:13 pm

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mattshock wrote:Why do we care that he produces well with others?!? So every guy in the dugout can't pitch the ball, it doesn't matter.

No one else on this team can create offense like Spezza can. He's our most dangerous playmaker. Do you think Heatley would be close to his 50 every year if he had Fisher, Vermette, Bass, McAmmond, Donovan, or Kelly centering him!?

Spezza and Heatley are still our top offensive threat, and as a result, they get paired against the shutdown pairings, or line matched against the other teams top offensive lines. They play the hard minutes, and rightfully so, and still manage to produce all the while creating better chances for the subsequent lines. (Spezza is usually around +20 too, btw).

I haven't seen a single blind backpass this season, and those used to drive me CRAZY. He's becoming a more defensive minded player on a more defensively minded team. He's buying in. He's scored roughly 90 points in the last three seasons, and he's still only 25.

He's no slouch. He's a playmaker. Management puts him with players who can score goals, and he gets them the puck. "Making the other players around him better" is something I've heard a lot. If he's guilty of anything, it's trying to do too much by himself when paired with lesser talented linemates. That is something that can be easily changed.

1. Heatley was getting 40 in Atlanta, and yes, he could get 40 goals a year without Spezza.

2. Plus/Minus is the dumbest, most over used stat in the NHL and people think it actually indicates how well, or how poorly someone is playing defensivly.

3. Managment is obviously getting tired of Spezza producing with only 1 guy, otherwise Harstberg wouldnt have said anything about Spezza, because he has been alright on the other side of the puck this year.

4. He was only 23 2 years ago, he was only 24 last year, now he is only 25. How much longer do you wait for the guy? He has a NTC after the season is up, and Spezza has less than 70 games to show he is this teams future, and there is no one who can say for sure if this guy has what it takes to be the go to guy on a team, despite anyone's opinion. He has not shown that to this point.

5. IMO, the reason he tried to do everything himself is because he doesnt have the ability to make an average player good, and a good player great. Until this point he has played with 2 great players, that have made him look great. Spezza is good, no where near great. The great players make everyone else better and until some of the Sens fans realize Spezza has yet to do that, then there is no real point in discussing it.

6. There have been guys all throughout the history of the NHL who have had great offensive careers and didnt win a thing, right now, thats where Spezza falls.

41Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:25 pm

mattshock

mattshock
Veteran
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Decent points, I'll give you that.

Plus/minus is a brutal stat, but it's still a stat. Spezza produces and isn't nearly the defensive liability he once was.

Is management getting tired of him? Then why did they re-up him to a long term deal and give him a no trade? I'd say that's indicative that they already see him as a part of their future moving forward.

We're not waiting for him. He's producing, and he's been producing. What we were waiting for was his defensive game to improve, and for him to perform in the playoffs. Check and check.

Your fifth point is interesting, and I'm trying to think up a good rebuttle. Maybe Heatley does make Spezza better. It doesn't really matter if that's the case or not. They make up a dangerous offensive line that pots 250+ points per year. Spezza is a cog in that, hard to argue.

I got another guy: Alfie. We could bring in "winners" like Commodore and Stillman (wish he was here still), but I'll take the Phillips' and the Alfie's (and the Spezza's) any day.

42Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:08 pm

Laker

Laker
Prospect
Prospect
Some good points Neely but can't agree with them all...

1. Heatley will play well with any center but I still think he is better with Spezza.

2. +/- is a stat that is useful but has to be used in context.

3. Hard to disagree if the coach is calling him out.

4. Spezza has had great stats and is getting better as a player every year. Few players have his puck skills and vision on the ice. I think many teams would take him as a go to player.

5. Some good points but he does make the team better. Spezza constantly draws the other teams shut down line (and mainly shut down D pair). He was one of the better players when the team went to the cup final.

6. That's true but Spezza has time to prove himself. Look at players like Lecavalier ... they wanted him traded as well before Tampa won.

43Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:03 pm

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My point through all this wasnt to trash Spezza because I have liked his game more than I have in the past this year. It comes down to "will this be the guy to take the team to the top of the league", and if I had to answer right now, the answer would be no.

I said this in the chat room, if the Sens were to get an offer from Atlanta for Little, Enstrom, and their first round pick when the season was over (if it was top 3), the Sens would be stupid not to take it. If the Sens are just looking for a guy who can put up 80-90 points playing 1st PP mins and playing next to Heatley, they can find him, and probably in Atlanta. That is a team desperate to make a move.

If a trade like that were to happen, I think the Sens would be a better team going forward. Hopefully that pick would turn into Hedman, if not, this is another deep draft. Little would put up 82 plus points playing on that that first line, and Enstrom is a good D man with A LOT of potential.

Basically, if it was Little, Enstrom, and Hedman for Spezza, I wouldnt think twice if this team missed the playoffs.

44Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:10 pm

wprager

wprager
Administrator
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Let's also not forget that Alfie never got more than 80 points in a season until he started playing with Sepzza fulltime. Oh, and with Heater as well.

Spezza is not a player without issues or one who can stop accelerating and coast the rest of his career. That said, there's not a team out there that wouldn't want him on their roster even at $7M per.

Does he make Heatley a better player? You bet! He scored 41 playing in the armpit of the NHL, the dreaded South (l)East Division. It was easier to score goals against those teams. Then he comes to the Sens -- a team that had been in the cusp for so long that *everyone* gets up for games against them, and he goes out and scores 50. Twice.

Spezza makes passes that all but the top 3-5 centers in the league simply cannot make, and he makes them on a regular basis. For a guy who lives on the one-timer, you'd better believe it makes him a better player.

45Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:13 pm

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
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To push the point even farther Wprager - I went to the Columbus board and they were very taken with the idea of getting Spezza - even if it meant Nash. So yeah, needless to say I agree with you and Laker. I'm on the Spezza train big time.

46Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:16 pm

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wprager wrote:Let's also not forget that Alfie never got more than 80 points in a season until he started playing with Sepzza fulltime. Oh, and with Heater as well.

Spezza is not a player without issues or one who can stop accelerating and coast the rest of his career. That said, there's not a team out there that wouldn't want him on their roster even at $7M per.

Does he make Heatley a better player? You bet! He scored 41 playing in the armpit of the NHL, the dreaded South (l)East Division. It was easier to score goals against those teams. Then he comes to the Sens -- a team that had been in the cusp for so long that *everyone* gets up for games against them, and he goes out and scores 50. Twice.

Spezza makes passes that all but the top 3-5 centers in the league simply cannot make, and he makes them on a regular basis. For a guy who lives on the one-timer, you'd better believe it makes him a better player.

I dont see how you can make the assumption with Alfi saying that he didnt score more than 80 because Spezza wasnt there. Martin held him back, plain and simple. While at the same time you make the assumption Heatley only got 41 because he played in the SE division. He was also 21, despite how tough a division is, very few 21 year old kids put up that any goals.

Again, the proof that Heatley can play without Spezza is out there. Team Canada's, previously playing for the Thrashers, and when Spezza is injured he has shown he can put up points. Spezza has yet to prove that he can play without either Heatley and/or Alfi. Im not trying to trash the guy, but he struggles to put up the points when he doesnt have those two on his wing. If someone can give me some proof that he does, I would love to see it.

47Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:20 pm

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wprager wrote:

Spezza makes passes that all but the top 3-5 centers in the league simply cannot make, and he makes them on a regular basis.
Thornton and Datsyuk are the only players I can think of.

48Pat Burns on Jason Spezza - Page 3 Empty Re: Pat Burns on Jason Spezza on Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:23 pm

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Tukker wrote:
wprager wrote:

Spezza makes passes that all but the top 3-5 centers in the league simply cannot make, and he makes them on a regular basis.
Thornton and Datsyuk are the only players I can think of.

Zettiberg, Little (yes he can and does), Crosby, Malkin, Lecailvier, Rebiero (in no way do I think he is better than Spezza, but he makes those passes).

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